9 ms·

Growing up, my American-addled brain could not comprehend putting the "good of others" above my own empowerment. The focus on the individual (me, I suppose) was

Growing up, my American-addled brain could not comprehend putting the "good of others" above my own empowerment. The focus on the individual (me, I suppose) was a thing I was, for some reason, proud of about the U.S. (or perhaps "the West" by extension?). Only as an adult, with a wife, kids (and perhaps a better perspective of the world?) did I realize how foolish I was growing up. And I see more and more how we, as a nation, constantly pay the price for that mindset.

simonmales 9mo ago
I made fun of the 'America First' campaign slogan and referred to it as 'America Only'. Then you can quickly use this idea on people who put themselves in front of others. And the reality is it's not about being first, rather it's only about them, not what comes after them.
ferguess_k 9mo ago
I always heard that individualism is centric to the American mind, but on the other hand, I found that American interests groups (corporations especially) are very good at "hunting" in a group. I talked to some mid-level policy-maker friends in China and they recognize that the American corporations are very good at working as a "wolf pack", while the Chinese ones usually fight each other -- you can see examples in Huawei versus Zhongxing when both are competing in foreign markets.
alphazard 9mo ago
Naive self-interest is a characteristic of children. You didn't stumble upon some ancient wisdom of another culture, you just matured and established a family, which your instincts tell you to put before yourself. The West is individualistic, but all that means is that individuals choose their circle of concern. Without any further guidance, that means that innate instincts about who is important (family, close friends) dominate, rather than a forced narrative about the collective.
- zozbot234 9mo ago
  Kids have very little agency to begin with, so looking out for #1 is a fully rational strategy from their POV. As an adult, you grow a lot more comfortable with your situation and it becomes natural to "expand the circle of concern" beyond oneself.
  - cucumber3732842 9mo ago
    I think it has more to do with agency than age except that agency increases with age. Look at prisoners, people dependent upon disability, people in authoritarian societies, you see all the same stuff. They're just more tactful about it because they're adults.
- watwut 9mo ago
  Kids do think about others and cooperate, they do have natural empathy and care too. A lot more in cooperative cultures where they are taught to be like that. Less in individualistic cultures where they are taught to not be empathetic. Even within West, there is range of individualism. Netherland is different then USA and both are different then Spain. It is not just instinct that makes some people (including kids) dominant, it is also that they are being actively taught to act like that. The natural thing is for parents to teach kids own values, both in a planned and conscious way and in the "by the way" style.
- jgeada 9mo ago
  Not the "West", obsessive single minded individualism is a US characteristic. All other western nations (read: Europe) realize that there is significant value to society and that to achieve things we need to work as a group.
  - squeefers 9mo ago
    > and that to achieve things we need to work as a group. yeah, lots of "cooperation" in europe all right. left and right hate each other just as much as they do anywhere else
gjsman-1000 9mo ago
However, complaints about this always ring hollow because it’s constantly tied to a political goal. “Americans are so individualistic, they don’t care about climate change.” For how many Americans don’t care about their credit score, or bank account, or student debt, or local elections, or countless other things directly immediately affecting their lives, that’s not the case. It’s more that humans A) are bad at caring about the future and B) don’t trust scientists for any number of reasons they wouldn’t trust any other human meaning C) the only way to change this is to convince them, not lecture them, just like any other group that wants power, because no group is intrinsically special regarding human communication.

simonmales 9mo ago

I made fun of the 'America First' campaign slogan and referred to it as 'America Only'. Then you can quickly use this idea on people who put themselves in front of others. And the reality is it's not about being first, rather it's only about them, not what comes after them.

ferguess_k 9mo ago

I always heard that individualism is centric to the American mind, but on the other hand, I found that American interests groups (corporations especially) are very good at "hunting" in a group. I talked to some mid-level policy-maker friends in China and they recognize that the American corporations are very good at working as a "wolf pack", while the Chinese ones usually fight each other -- you can see examples in Huawei versus Zhongxing when both are competing in foreign markets.

alphazard 9mo ago

Naive self-interest is a characteristic of children. You didn't stumble upon some ancient wisdom of another culture, you just matured and established a family, which your instincts tell you to put before yourself. The West is individualistic, but all that means is that individuals choose their circle of concern. Without any further guidance, that means that innate instincts about who is important (family, close friends) dominate, rather than a forced narrative about the collective.

zozbot234 9mo ago
Kids have very little agency to begin with, so looking out for #1 is a fully rational strategy from their POV. As an adult, you grow a lot more comfortable with your situation and it becomes natural to "expand the circle of concern" beyond oneself.
- cucumber3732842 9mo ago
  I think it has more to do with agency than age except that agency increases with age. Look at prisoners, people dependent upon disability, people in authoritarian societies, you see all the same stuff. They're just more tactful about it because they're adults.
watwut 9mo ago
Kids do think about others and cooperate, they do have natural empathy and care too. A lot more in cooperative cultures where they are taught to be like that. Less in individualistic cultures where they are taught to not be empathetic. Even within West, there is range of individualism. Netherland is different then USA and both are different then Spain. It is not just instinct that makes some people (including kids) dominant, it is also that they are being actively taught to act like that. The natural thing is for parents to teach kids own values, both in a planned and conscious way and in the "by the way" style.
jgeada 9mo ago
Not the "West", obsessive single minded individualism is a US characteristic. All other western nations (read: Europe) realize that there is significant value to society and that to achieve things we need to work as a group.
- squeefers 9mo ago
  > and that to achieve things we need to work as a group. yeah, lots of "cooperation" in europe all right. left and right hate each other just as much as they do anywhere else

gjsman-1000 9mo ago

However, complaints about this always ring hollow because it’s constantly tied to a political goal. “Americans are so individualistic, they don’t care about climate change.” For how many Americans don’t care about their credit score, or bank account, or student debt, or local elections, or countless other things directly immediately affecting their lives, that’s not the case. It’s more that humans A) are bad at caring about the future and B) don’t trust scientists for any number of reasons they wouldn’t trust any other human meaning C) the only way to change this is to convince them, not lecture them, just like any other group that wants power, because no group is intrinsically special regarding human communication.