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The originals sound better. The aliasing provides a crunchiness and sharpness to the final output that drives emotional energy. That zero mission rhythm isn't i

by dleslie 8mo ago

The originals sound better. The aliasing provides a crunchiness and sharpness to the final output that drives emotional energy. That zero mission rhythm isn't intended to sound smooth and soft, the driving hard beats are an emotional tool for eliciting anxiety and anticipation from the player. But this is a bit like those who use smoothing filters. It's ultimately about taste, but it should be recognized that unless the filter is attempting to accurately recreate the original hardware of the era then the original design intent is not being adhered to, and so something may be lost in the "enhancement".

asdff 8mo ago
A friend had this killer basement setup with a projector into a huge canvas dropsheet. Plus the game cube, and the GBA dock for it, so we were projecting those games meant for a 2 inch screen maybe 10-15 feet wide.
- Andrex 8mo ago
  Imagining how sharp and crisp those pixels must have been at that size... Oh man. If it wasn't so late I'd calculate how big (in inches) an individual pixel is at that size.
  - jbarberu 8mo ago
    0.5" at 10' wide screen (assuming no letter-boxing). GBA screen is 240x160 pixels.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
CyberDildonics 8mo ago
The originals sound better. I don't think so, I think you're just getting a high end that isn't in the original audio. In the places where there are high frequencies the aliasing and the hiss just gets in the way. that drives emotional energy Seems like a hyperbolic rationalization.
- RASBR89 8mo ago
  The ‘improved’ versions sound muffled like I have water in my ears. Plus I’d rather hear the game as it was designed, artefacts and all.
  - stavros 8mo ago
    The artifacts weren't a conscious design decision, they were a constraint. We don't know whether the designers would have chosen to keep them or not, if they had the choice.
    - snvzz 8mo ago
      GBA games were made for a console that behaved like this. Accuracy is paramount. Targeting else than the console's sound is an affront to preservation.
      - stavros 8mo ago
        Preservation and design intent are two very different things.
        Andrex 8mo ago
        The idea that sound designers on old games were totally siloed and ignorant of how their compositions would sound on final consumer hardware is completely wrong. Most of these composers were programmers themselves and knew exactly how to get the final hardware to make the sounds they wanted, even when they composed using more advanced tech. Programmers using devkits (more powerful than the consumer hardware) likewise.
        stavros 8mo ago
        I don't understand what you mean. Nobody said they didn't know how their compositions would sound, my argument is that at least some of these composers would have chosen the more advanced interpolation method, if it were available.
ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
> The originals sound better. The aliasing provides a crunchiness and sharpness to the final output that drives emotional energy. In the mid-1980s the first really affordable sampler was the Ensoniq Mirage, which used the Bob Yannes-designed ES5503 DOC (Digital Oscillator Chip) to generate its waveforms. It played back 8-bit samples and used a fairly simple phase accumulator that didn't do any form of interpolation (I don't count "leftmost neighbour" as interpolation). Particularly when you pitch it down, you get a rough, clanky, gritty "whine" to samples, that the analogue filters didn't necessarily do a lot to remove. Later on they released the EPS which had 13-bit sampling. Why 13-bit? I don't know, I guess because the Emulator I and II used 8-bit samples but μ-law coding, giving effectively 13-bit equivalent resolution. It also used linear interpolation to smooth the "jumps" between samples, and even if you loaded in and converted a Mirage disk the "graininess" when you pitched things down was gone. I'm currently writing some code to play back Mirage samples from disk images, and I've actually added a linear interpolator to it. Some things sound better with it, some things sound worse. I think I'll make it a front panel control, so you can turn it on and off as you want.
- emptybits 8mo ago
  I'll just throw some more ES5503 DOC love here. It's also the audio chip in the Apple IIGS. In 1986, having a stock home computer playing 32 simultaneous hardware voices (without software mixing), each with hardware pan ... was remarkable. Otherwise you were stuck with 3 or maybe 4 hardware voices. e.g. the timbre and filter of the C64 SID chip was gorgeous (another Bob Yannes design), but 3 voices was all you got. And just 3 square waves and noise on the Ataris of the era. Chords or complex harmony? Fire up the arpeggiators! Lol. When I browse the demoscene I'm always a bit surprised there's not much Apple IIGS content. Graphically, it was stunted, but the ES5503 DOC was a pro synth engine right there next to the 6502 ... yowza.
mock-possum 8mo ago
Yeah this is a neat experiment, but the ‘cleaned up’ versions sound ‘wrong’ to my ears - that high whistle/hiss is ‘missing.’
Wowfunhappy 8mo ago
It's really close for me. I listened to the accurate version, then the enhanced one, and my first thought was "oh, yeah, this sounds better." Then I listened to the accurate version again, and thought "wait, never mind, this one sounds better." After going back and forth a few times, I think I still agree the original/accurate one is better, but it's pretty close. I really encourage people to listen for themselves. For what it's worth, I have little to no personal nostalgia for the Game Boy Advance.
jsgroth 8mo ago
This is fair, I should have made it clearer that this is all subjective. For what it's worth I have all of this disabled by default in my own emulator because I think default settings should always err towards accuracy when that's a question. I personally do prefer the interpolated versions in most cases because to me the extra high-frequency information just sounds like noise that makes it harder for my brain to process the underlying music. But clearly many feel differently!
eru 8mo ago
Well, we can't just say 'original = intent'. The original artists presumably did the best job of expressing their intent as far as possible in the medium at the time, but that doesn't mean that this necessarily is the best expression of their intent ever. It's like saying you can only watch the Simpsons with the exact late 1980s / early 1990s ads that they originally aired with, and everything else is sacrilege.
- butlike 8mo ago
  But without asking them it's pure conjecture. I don't think trying to retcon the best expression of their intent needs to be used to justify this project, either. Sometimes it's fun to see if you can build an improvement on what exists, even if it's a vehicle for learning about DSP or whatever domain the learner is in.
ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
I think it's not so much that one sounds better or the other. The "uninterpolated" one is incorrect. The "interpolated" one is incorrect. The uninterpolated one has sharp square edges, which isn't correct. The GBA has a 12dB/octave filter at around 12kHz (IIRC) on the output, which the uninterpolated simulated output doesn't appear to have. This would knock the corners off a bit and make it "smoother" and less hissy, but would still have quite crunchy low frequency sounds. The interpolated one smooths things off excessively, and while it doesn't really have much less spectral energy high up, what's there is in the wrong place.

by dleslie 8mo ago

asdff 8mo ago

A friend had this killer basement setup with a projector into a huge canvas dropsheet. Plus the game cube, and the GBA dock for it, so we were projecting those games meant for a 2 inch screen maybe 10-15 feet wide.

Andrex 8mo ago
Imagining how sharp and crisp those pixels must have been at that size... Oh man. If it wasn't so late I'd calculate how big (in inches) an individual pixel is at that size.
- jbarberu 8mo ago
  0.5" at 10' wide screen (assuming no letter-boxing). GBA screen is 240x160 pixels.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

CyberDildonics 8mo ago

The originals sound better. I don't think so, I think you're just getting a high end that isn't in the original audio. In the places where there are high frequencies the aliasing and the hiss just gets in the way. that drives emotional energy Seems like a hyperbolic rationalization.

RASBR89 8mo ago
The ‘improved’ versions sound muffled like I have water in my ears. Plus I’d rather hear the game as it was designed, artefacts and all.
- stavros 8mo ago
  The artifacts weren't a conscious design decision, they were a constraint. We don't know whether the designers would have chosen to keep them or not, if they had the choice.
  - snvzz 8mo ago
    GBA games were made for a console that behaved like this. Accuracy is paramount. Targeting else than the console's sound is an affront to preservation.
    - stavros 8mo ago
      Preservation and design intent are two very different things.
      - Andrex 8mo ago
        The idea that sound designers on old games were totally siloed and ignorant of how their compositions would sound on final consumer hardware is completely wrong. Most of these composers were programmers themselves and knew exactly how to get the final hardware to make the sounds they wanted, even when they composed using more advanced tech. Programmers using devkits (more powerful than the consumer hardware) likewise.
        stavros 8mo ago
        I don't understand what you mean. Nobody said they didn't know how their compositions would sound, my argument is that at least some of these composers would have chosen the more advanced interpolation method, if it were available.

ErroneousBosh 8mo ago

> The originals sound better. The aliasing provides a crunchiness and sharpness to the final output that drives emotional energy. In the mid-1980s the first really affordable sampler was the Ensoniq Mirage, which used the Bob Yannes-designed ES5503 DOC (Digital Oscillator Chip) to generate its waveforms. It played back 8-bit samples and used a fairly simple phase accumulator that didn't do any form of interpolation (I don't count "leftmost neighbour" as interpolation). Particularly when you pitch it down, you get a rough, clanky, gritty "whine" to samples, that the analogue filters didn't necessarily do a lot to remove. Later on they released the EPS which had 13-bit sampling. Why 13-bit? I don't know, I guess because the Emulator I and II used 8-bit samples but μ-law coding, giving effectively 13-bit equivalent resolution. It also used linear interpolation to smooth the "jumps" between samples, and even if you loaded in and converted a Mirage disk the "graininess" when you pitched things down was gone. I'm currently writing some code to play back Mirage samples from disk images, and I've actually added a linear interpolator to it. Some things sound better with it, some things sound worse. I think I'll make it a front panel control, so you can turn it on and off as you want.

emptybits 8mo ago
I'll just throw some more ES5503 DOC love here. It's also the audio chip in the Apple IIGS. In 1986, having a stock home computer playing 32 simultaneous hardware voices (without software mixing), each with hardware pan ... was remarkable. Otherwise you were stuck with 3 or maybe 4 hardware voices. e.g. the timbre and filter of the C64 SID chip was gorgeous (another Bob Yannes design), but 3 voices was all you got. And just 3 square waves and noise on the Ataris of the era. Chords or complex harmony? Fire up the arpeggiators! Lol. When I browse the demoscene I'm always a bit surprised there's not much Apple IIGS content. Graphically, it was stunted, but the ES5503 DOC was a pro synth engine right there next to the 6502 ... yowza.

mock-possum 8mo ago

Yeah this is a neat experiment, but the ‘cleaned up’ versions sound ‘wrong’ to my ears - that high whistle/hiss is ‘missing.’

Wowfunhappy 8mo ago

It's really close for me. I listened to the accurate version, then the enhanced one, and my first thought was "oh, yeah, this sounds better." Then I listened to the accurate version again, and thought "wait, never mind, this one sounds better." After going back and forth a few times, I think I still agree the original/accurate one is better, but it's pretty close. I really encourage people to listen for themselves. For what it's worth, I have little to no personal nostalgia for the Game Boy Advance.

jsgroth 8mo ago

This is fair, I should have made it clearer that this is all subjective. For what it's worth I have all of this disabled by default in my own emulator because I think default settings should always err towards accuracy when that's a question. I personally do prefer the interpolated versions in most cases because to me the extra high-frequency information just sounds like noise that makes it harder for my brain to process the underlying music. But clearly many feel differently!

eru 8mo ago

Well, we can't just say 'original = intent'. The original artists presumably did the best job of expressing their intent as far as possible in the medium at the time, but that doesn't mean that this necessarily is the best expression of their intent ever. It's like saying you can only watch the Simpsons with the exact late 1980s / early 1990s ads that they originally aired with, and everything else is sacrilege.

butlike 8mo ago
But without asking them it's pure conjecture. I don't think trying to retcon the best expression of their intent needs to be used to justify this project, either. Sometimes it's fun to see if you can build an improvement on what exists, even if it's a vehicle for learning about DSP or whatever domain the learner is in.

ErroneousBosh 8mo ago

I think it's not so much that one sounds better or the other. The "uninterpolated" one is incorrect. The "interpolated" one is incorrect. The uninterpolated one has sharp square edges, which isn't correct. The GBA has a 12dB/octave filter at around 12kHz (IIRC) on the output, which the uninterpolated simulated output doesn't appear to have. This would knock the corners off a bit and make it "smoother" and less hissy, but would still have quite crunchy low frequency sounds. The interpolated one smooths things off excessively, and while it doesn't really have much less spectral energy high up, what's there is in the wrong place.