6 ms·

Retaining 90% range at -40°C sounds like a game changer, almost too good to be true. I'm definitely going to need to see some third-party real-world range tests

by Flavius 8mo ago

Retaining 90% range at -40°C sounds like a game changer, almost too good to be true. I'm definitely going to need to see some third-party real-world range tests to validate those claims before getting too excited.

tedd4u 8mo ago
And human occupants will still run the heater more in winter. But it sounds like there could be a future where makers offer a sodium battery and heat pump version of their cars for sale in colder climates.
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  > future where makers offer a sodium battery and heat pump version AFAIK most EVs already use heat pumps today, so the future happens whenever sodium batteries become mainstream.
  - cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
    IIRC there are some surprising holdouts, at least in the NA market. For example as far as I'm aware the Mustang Mach-E still ships with a resistive heater.
    - rootusrootus 8mo ago
      > Mustang Mach-E still ships with a resistive heater Nope, the Mach E and Lightning both have a heat pump (well, just the Mach E now, I suppose, since the Lightning is out of production).
      - tzs 8mo ago
        It should be noted that started with the 2025 model. Earlier Mach-Es just had resistance heating.
  - formerly_proven 8mo ago
    Vehicle ASHP do little in deep cold temperatures, since the evaporator is necessarily so small. They're mostly effective in the 0-15C range. Note that all EVs have PTC heaters, regardless of heat pump. The PTC is what does most of the work for getting the interior to temperature quickly (they're 5-10 kW).
  - expedition32 8mo ago
    The cheaper EVs don't. Think 35k range. Obviously Tesla and the like are more luxury cars but if EV is to become mainstream they need to compete with ICE Kia's and Volkswagen.
    - rsynnott 8mo ago
      The VW id.3 costs about 30k. It doesn't have a heat pump by default, but it's a 1,200 EUR add-on. Which probably makes sense; in some markets where it's sold it doesn't really get cold enough that one is of significant benefit. Interestingly, the Hyundai Inster (20k EUR) and Renault 5 (25k EUR) both have heat pumps as standard equipment.
- jopsen 8mo ago
  I think our id.4 2023 model already has that. It has crappy software too. Great car, drives fantastically, but horrific software! But if they add buttons back as planned, I might be willing to try a new id.4 in 5-10 years.
  - formerly_proven 8mo ago
    just fyi for the MY23 and older software 3.8/9 should be available for update, which is a pretty significant upgrade compared to 3.2 or the 2.x builds (which I don't think a MY23 should have but idk).
- metalman 8mo ago
  Running a preheater loop for the heat pump from the systems than need to be cooled, inverter and motor that run better cold,and other optimisations could likely supply cabin heat with very little battery draw, solar pv blended into the exterior could zero that out on an average basis,but 40 below is nothing to play with unless you know exactly what you are doing, even if they say it will still work. https://electrek.co/2026/02/05/first-sodium-ion-battery-ev-debuts-game-changer/ https://electrek.co/2026/02/05/first-sodium-ion-battery-ev-d...
epistasis 8mo ago
Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F. https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather At -40F (-40C), it's generally good practice to just stay inside and not drive at all...
- seiferteric 8mo ago
  > Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F. Is that actually true once the engine has reached operating temperature?
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - helterskelter 8mo ago
    The temperature difference should in principle increase thermodynamic efficiency. You get loss of MPG from other factors though mentioned in the link, like increased friction of moving parts, idling to warm up (0MPG), defrosters/seat heaters, lower tire pressure, denser air to drive through, winter fuel mixes which may not have as much energy, etc.
  - number6 8mo ago
    Well you have to keep it at operating temperature
  - jurgenburgen 8mo ago
    Assuming you can get the car to start (mine needs an engine warmer at that temperature), it takes at least 15 minutes of driving to reach that temperature. Unless you’re going on a longer trip the engine most likely wont be warm by the time you reach your destination.
    - gambiting 8mo ago
      Garages exist though.
teraflop 8mo ago
Note that this article's summary has a significant error compared to the original press release[1]. The article says "90% range", whereas the press release says "90% capacity retention". This is a big difference because there are all kinds of other factors besides energy capacity that can affect the efficiency of the whole system, and therefore affect range. Most notably, air is about 28% denser at -40°C than at 25°C, so drag is about 28% higher. So you would expect roughly 28% less range at high speeds even if the battery has no capacity loss whatsoever. As someone else mentioned, climate control also consumes a lot more power when it has to maintain a larger temperature difference between inside and outside. [1]: https://www.catl.com/en/news/6720.html https://www.catl.com/en/news/6720.html
- jfengel 8mo ago
  That implies that air resistance is the overwhelming contributor at high speeds. Is that the case?
  - kalenx 8mo ago
    Considering air resistance is proportional to the cube of the speed, it would be highly surprising to not be the case.
    - cameldrv 8mo ago
      It goes with the cube in terms of power, but with the square in terms of energy/distance, which is usually what you'd care about.
    - pengaru 8mo ago
      s/cube/square/
  - Saris 8mo ago
    Yes it is.
  - gpm 8mo ago
    It's the majority, but overwhelming or not surprisingly appears to depend on car model, at least per some calculations someone on reddit ran [1]. I'd add though that rolling resistance tends to be higher, on average, in winter too. When there's often a bit of snow on the roads... Less so on high speed highways admittedly. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l2cq6b/comment/gk507sm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l2cq6b/comment/...
Joel_Mckay 8mo ago
>almost too good to be true Since the Lithium battery prices dropped, there are many Sodium battery companies simply abandoning the research or shuttering. Not a good sign when smart people jump ship. The Na cells also have lower energy-density, and currently fewer viable charge cycles. One can still buy evaluation samples, but it takes time to figure out if the technology will make economic sense. Best regards =3
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  > many Sodium battery companies simply abandoning the research or shuttering There could be other reasons. Maybe they just cannot compete with CATL.
  - Joel_Mckay 8mo ago
    Rule #29: Information people want public usually isn't news, but rather just marketing rhetoric. we can always afford to wait and see. Have a great day =3
PunchyHamster 8mo ago
Chemistry-wise it checks out, it was long touted advantage of sodium, just that they probably ignored rest of the problems in winter
bryanlarsen 8mo ago
I don't imagine the difference is very significant on long drives. If the car is cold soaked at -30, it uses about 10kW for the first 3km. Then everything is warmed up, and the ~25% difference is increased consumption, not decreased battery capacity. As long as you have a heat pump harvesting the waste heat to keep the battery up to temp. But might be significant on short drives, 10kW for the first 3 km is massive.
- rayiner 8mo ago
  Yeah, this heat up effect is massive for around-town use. We have had below freezing weather for two weeks, which is very unusual here in Annapolis. That’s had a huge impact on my wife’s use case, which involves a bunch of 5-10 mile trips to drop the kids off at school, go on a grocery run, pick the kids up, take the kids to math tutoring, etc. She ran out of charge the other day during drop-off b/c the “37 miles left” we had the night before was actually a lot less than that accounting for warming the battery up the next day.
  - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
    10kW is about 40 miles of range, as you figured out the hard way.
    - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
      Arg, 10kWh, not 10kW.
maayank 8mo ago
Why would that be a game changer? Genuinely curious.
minneapoliced 8mo ago
With high-density energy carbohydrogens, you retain 100%.
- wpm 8mo ago
  And get 100% of the conflict and air pollution

by Flavius 8mo ago

tedd4u 8mo ago

And human occupants will still run the heater more in winter. But it sounds like there could be a future where makers offer a sodium battery and heat pump version of their cars for sale in colder climates.

rootusrootus 8mo ago
> future where makers offer a sodium battery and heat pump version AFAIK most EVs already use heat pumps today, so the future happens whenever sodium batteries become mainstream.
- cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
  IIRC there are some surprising holdouts, at least in the NA market. For example as far as I'm aware the Mustang Mach-E still ships with a resistive heater.
  - rootusrootus 8mo ago
    > Mustang Mach-E still ships with a resistive heater Nope, the Mach E and Lightning both have a heat pump (well, just the Mach E now, I suppose, since the Lightning is out of production).
    - tzs 8mo ago
      It should be noted that started with the 2025 model. Earlier Mach-Es just had resistance heating.
- formerly_proven 8mo ago
  Vehicle ASHP do little in deep cold temperatures, since the evaporator is necessarily so small. They're mostly effective in the 0-15C range. Note that all EVs have PTC heaters, regardless of heat pump. The PTC is what does most of the work for getting the interior to temperature quickly (they're 5-10 kW).
- expedition32 8mo ago
  The cheaper EVs don't. Think 35k range. Obviously Tesla and the like are more luxury cars but if EV is to become mainstream they need to compete with ICE Kia's and Volkswagen.
  - rsynnott 8mo ago
    The VW id.3 costs about 30k. It doesn't have a heat pump by default, but it's a 1,200 EUR add-on. Which probably makes sense; in some markets where it's sold it doesn't really get cold enough that one is of significant benefit. Interestingly, the Hyundai Inster (20k EUR) and Renault 5 (25k EUR) both have heat pumps as standard equipment.
jopsen 8mo ago
I think our id.4 2023 model already has that. It has crappy software too. Great car, drives fantastically, but horrific software! But if they add buttons back as planned, I might be willing to try a new id.4 in 5-10 years.
- formerly_proven 8mo ago
  just fyi for the MY23 and older software 3.8/9 should be available for update, which is a pretty significant upgrade compared to 3.2 or the 2.x builds (which I don't think a MY23 should have but idk).
metalman 8mo ago
Running a preheater loop for the heat pump from the systems than need to be cooled, inverter and motor that run better cold,and other optimisations could likely supply cabin heat with very little battery draw, solar pv blended into the exterior could zero that out on an average basis,but 40 below is nothing to play with unless you know exactly what you are doing, even if they say it will still work. https://electrek.co/2026/02/05/first-sodium-ion-battery-ev-debuts-game-changer/ https://electrek.co/2026/02/05/first-sodium-ion-battery-ev-d...

epistasis 8mo ago

Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F. https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather At -40F (-40C), it's generally good practice to just stay inside and not drive at all...

seiferteric 8mo ago
> Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F. Is that actually true once the engine has reached operating temperature?
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- helterskelter 8mo ago
  The temperature difference should in principle increase thermodynamic efficiency. You get loss of MPG from other factors though mentioned in the link, like increased friction of moving parts, idling to warm up (0MPG), defrosters/seat heaters, lower tire pressure, denser air to drive through, winter fuel mixes which may not have as much energy, etc.
- number6 8mo ago
  Well you have to keep it at operating temperature
- jurgenburgen 8mo ago
  Assuming you can get the car to start (mine needs an engine warmer at that temperature), it takes at least 15 minutes of driving to reach that temperature. Unless you’re going on a longer trip the engine most likely wont be warm by the time you reach your destination.
  - gambiting 8mo ago
    Garages exist though.

teraflop 8mo ago

Note that this article's summary has a significant error compared to the original press release[1]. The article says "90% range", whereas the press release says "90% capacity retention". This is a big difference because there are all kinds of other factors besides energy capacity that can affect the efficiency of the whole system, and therefore affect range. Most notably, air is about 28% denser at -40°C than at 25°C, so drag is about 28% higher. So you would expect roughly 28% less range at high speeds even if the battery has no capacity loss whatsoever. As someone else mentioned, climate control also consumes a lot more power when it has to maintain a larger temperature difference between inside and outside. [1]: https://www.catl.com/en/news/6720.html https://www.catl.com/en/news/6720.html

jfengel 8mo ago
That implies that air resistance is the overwhelming contributor at high speeds. Is that the case?
- kalenx 8mo ago
  Considering air resistance is proportional to the cube of the speed, it would be highly surprising to not be the case.
  - cameldrv 8mo ago
    It goes with the cube in terms of power, but with the square in terms of energy/distance, which is usually what you'd care about.
  - pengaru 8mo ago
    s/cube/square/
- Saris 8mo ago
  Yes it is.
- gpm 8mo ago
  It's the majority, but overwhelming or not surprisingly appears to depend on car model, at least per some calculations someone on reddit ran [1]. I'd add though that rolling resistance tends to be higher, on average, in winter too. When there's often a bit of snow on the roads... Less so on high speed highways admittedly. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l2cq6b/comment/gk507sm/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l2cq6b/comment/...

Joel_Mckay 8mo ago

>almost too good to be true Since the Lithium battery prices dropped, there are many Sodium battery companies simply abandoning the research or shuttering. Not a good sign when smart people jump ship. The Na cells also have lower energy-density, and currently fewer viable charge cycles. One can still buy evaluation samples, but it takes time to figure out if the technology will make economic sense. Best regards =3

rootusrootus 8mo ago
> many Sodium battery companies simply abandoning the research or shuttering There could be other reasons. Maybe they just cannot compete with CATL.
- Joel_Mckay 8mo ago
  Rule #29: Information people want public usually isn't news, but rather just marketing rhetoric. we can always afford to wait and see. Have a great day =3

PunchyHamster 8mo ago

Chemistry-wise it checks out, it was long touted advantage of sodium, just that they probably ignored rest of the problems in winter

bryanlarsen 8mo ago

I don't imagine the difference is very significant on long drives. If the car is cold soaked at -30, it uses about 10kW for the first 3km. Then everything is warmed up, and the ~25% difference is increased consumption, not decreased battery capacity. As long as you have a heat pump harvesting the waste heat to keep the battery up to temp. But might be significant on short drives, 10kW for the first 3 km is massive.

rayiner 8mo ago
Yeah, this heat up effect is massive for around-town use. We have had below freezing weather for two weeks, which is very unusual here in Annapolis. That’s had a huge impact on my wife’s use case, which involves a bunch of 5-10 mile trips to drop the kids off at school, go on a grocery run, pick the kids up, take the kids to math tutoring, etc. She ran out of charge the other day during drop-off b/c the “37 miles left” we had the night before was actually a lot less than that accounting for warming the battery up the next day.
- bryanlarsen 8mo ago
  10kW is about 40 miles of range, as you figured out the hard way.
  - bryanlarsen 8mo ago
    Arg, 10kWh, not 10kW.

maayank 8mo ago

Why would that be a game changer? Genuinely curious.

minneapoliced 8mo ago

With high-density energy carbohydrogens, you retain 100%.

wpm 8mo ago
And get 100% of the conflict and air pollution