4 ms·

>It was, for me, never about the code. Then it wasn't your craft.

by fastasucan 8mo ago

arduanika 8mo ago
No true programmer is excited for the future.
- heliumtera 8mo ago
  this is so true. never once in my life i saw anything get better. except for metal gear solid psx and gears of wars
  - bojan 8mo ago
    As someone who started with Borland DOS-era IDEs I can tell you that IDEs did get a lot better over the years. I'm still fascinated every day by JetBrains IDEs.
    - blibble 8mo ago
      > I'm still fascinated every day by JetBrains IDEs. have you used them recently? terrible, is the word I would use (as a customer since the 2010s)
- boxedemp 8mo ago
  And no true scotsman puts sugar in his porridge
  - simonwsucks 8mo ago
    [dead]
  - arduanika 8mo ago
    Yes, that was the reference! Possibly too obscure. I can't tell whether I'm being downvoted by optimists who missed the joke, or by pessimists who got it.
    - senordevnyc 8mo ago
      Haha, I downvoted you from the first category (until I read this comment).
    - pseudalopex 8mo ago
      Most sarcasm worsens discussion. And the comment guidelines say Don't be snarky.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- sumedh 8mo ago
  What is the definition of a true programmer. Maybe the age of programmers is over and this is the age of builders.
Ronsenshi 8mo ago
Yeah, seems like too many went into this field for money or status not because they like the process. Which is not an issue by itself, but now these people talk about how their AI assistant of choice made them some custom tool in two hours that would have taken them three weeks. And it's getting exhausting.
- shepherdjerred 8mo ago
  I went into this field because I love programming. I didn't even know how well these jobs paid until my junior year of college when I got an internship at AWS. I constantly programmed and read programming texts in my spare time growing up, in college, and after work. I love AI tools. I can have AI do the boring parts. I can even have to write polished, usable apps in languages that I don't know. I miss being able to think so much about architecture, best practices, frameworks/languages, how to improve, etc.
- logicprog 8mo ago
  That is an insane assumption to make based on the grandparents' post. What part of them talking about how much they care about the systems thinking and software architecture and usefulness and meaningfulness to other people of software over the day-to-day drudgery of APIs and bugs and typing in syntax indicates to you that they only care about money and status? They just care about a different part of the process.
- twelve40 8mo ago
  > many went into this field for money I went into this field for both! what do i do now, i'm screwed
stevejb 8mo ago
Isn't this like saying that if better woodworking tools come out, and you like woodworking, that woodworking somehow 'isn't your craft'. They said that their craft is about making things. There are woodworkers on YouTube who use CNC, some who use the best Festool stuff but nothing that moves on its own, and some who only use handtools. Where is the line at which woodworking is not their craft?
- jstanley 8mo ago
  The only confusion is in the use of the term "woodworking". For the power tool user, "woodworking with hand tools" isn't their craft. For the CNC user, "woodworking with manual machines" isn't their craft.
- AstroBen 8mo ago
  It's feeling much closer to hiring a woodworker to make you something, not woodworking tools
- terminalbraid 8mo ago
  The better analogy is you're now a shop manager or even just QA. You don't need to touch, look at, or think about the production process past asking for something and seeing if the final result fits the bill. You get something that looks like a cabinet because you asked for a cabinet. I don't consider that "woodworking craft", power tools or otherwise.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - sally_glance 8mo ago
    I'm pretty sure at least the better woodworking shop managers and QA people all have experience with woodworking and probably would also consider this their craft if asked.
  - Xenoamorphous 8mo ago
    If it looks like a cabinet, works as a cabinet and doesn’t fall apart, by all intents and purposes it’s a cabinet. 99% of people out there won’t care if it was a “craftsman” or a robot built it. Just like most people buy furniture at Ikea.
seanmcdirmid 8mo ago
It is a different kind of code. Just a lot of programmers can’t grock it as such. I guess I started out as a programmer, then went to grad school and learned how to write and communicate my ideas, it has a lot in common with programming, but at a deeper level. Now I’m doing both with AI and it’s a lot of fun. It is just programming at a higher level.
light_hue_1 8mo ago
That's just gatekeeping. It was and is my craft. I've been doing it since grade 5. Like 30 years now. Writing tight assembly for robot controllers all the way to AI on MRI machines to security for the DoD and now the biggest AI on the planet. But my craft was not typing. It's coding. If you're typist you're going to mourn the printer. But if you're a writer you're going to see how the improves your life.
- recursivegirth 8mo ago
  Right, there is a non-zero overlap between the VIM Andy's and AI nay-sayers.
- kelnos 8mo ago
  A big component to coding is typing. If you aren't doing the typing, then, unless you are dictating code to someone else to mechanically, verbatim type out for you, you are not coding. I do believe directing an LLM to write code, and then reviewing and refining that code with the LLM, is a skill that has value -- a ton of value! -- but I do not think it is coding. It's more like super-technical product management, or like a tech lead pair programming with a junior, but in a sort of mentorship way where they direct and nudge the junior and stay as hands-off as possible. It's not coding, and once that's the sum total of what you do, you are no longer a coder. You can get defensive and call this gatekeeping, but I think it's just the new reality. There's no shame in admitting that you've moved to a stage of your life where you build software but your role in it isn't as a coder anymore. Just as there's no shame in moving into management, if that's what you enjoy and are effective at it. (If presenting credentials is important to you, as you've done, I've been doing this since 1989, when I was 8 years old. I've gone down to embedded devices, up through desktop software, up to large distributed systems. Coding is my passion, and has been for most of my life.)
  - light_hue_1 8mo ago
    Assembling code doesn't require typing. Linking doesn't require typing. Even though once upon a time both did. Claiming that this isn't coding is as absurd as saying that coding is only what you do when you hook up the wires between some vacuum tubes. The LLM is a very smart compiler. That's all. Some people want to sit and write assembly. Good for them. But asserting that unless I assemble my own code I'm not a coder is just silly.
iambateman 8mo ago
I’m going to be thinking about this comment for a while—-and I think you’re basically right. Almost none of the code I wrote in 2015 is still in use today. Probably some percentage of people can point to code that lasted 20 years or longer, but it can’t be a big percentage. When I think of the work of a craft, I think of doing work which is capable of standing up for a long time. A great builder can make a house that can last for a thousand years and a potter can make a bowl that lasts just as long. I’ve thought of myself as a craftsman of code for a long time but maybe that was just wrong.
fullstackchris 8mo ago
so much garbage ego in statements like this. if you really knew about software, you'd recognize there are about a million ways to be successful in this field

>It was, for me, never about the code. Then it wasn't your craft.

arduanika 8mo ago

No true programmer is excited for the future.

heliumtera 8mo ago
this is so true. never once in my life i saw anything get better. except for metal gear solid psx and gears of wars
- bojan 8mo ago
  As someone who started with Borland DOS-era IDEs I can tell you that IDEs did get a lot better over the years. I'm still fascinated every day by JetBrains IDEs.
  - blibble 8mo ago
    > I'm still fascinated every day by JetBrains IDEs. have you used them recently? terrible, is the word I would use (as a customer since the 2010s)
boxedemp 8mo ago
And no true scotsman puts sugar in his porridge
- simonwsucks 8mo ago
  [dead]
- arduanika 8mo ago
  Yes, that was the reference! Possibly too obscure. I can't tell whether I'm being downvoted by optimists who missed the joke, or by pessimists who got it.
  - senordevnyc 8mo ago
    Haha, I downvoted you from the first category (until I read this comment).
  - pseudalopex 8mo ago
    Most sarcasm worsens discussion. And the comment guidelines say Don't be snarky.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
sumedh 8mo ago
What is the definition of a true programmer. Maybe the age of programmers is over and this is the age of builders.

Ronsenshi 8mo ago

Yeah, seems like too many went into this field for money or status not because they like the process. Which is not an issue by itself, but now these people talk about how their AI assistant of choice made them some custom tool in two hours that would have taken them three weeks. And it's getting exhausting.

shepherdjerred 8mo ago
I went into this field because I love programming. I didn't even know how well these jobs paid until my junior year of college when I got an internship at AWS. I constantly programmed and read programming texts in my spare time growing up, in college, and after work. I love AI tools. I can have AI do the boring parts. I can even have to write polished, usable apps in languages that I don't know. I miss being able to think so much about architecture, best practices, frameworks/languages, how to improve, etc.
logicprog 8mo ago
That is an insane assumption to make based on the grandparents' post. What part of them talking about how much they care about the systems thinking and software architecture and usefulness and meaningfulness to other people of software over the day-to-day drudgery of APIs and bugs and typing in syntax indicates to you that they only care about money and status? They just care about a different part of the process.
twelve40 8mo ago
> many went into this field for money I went into this field for both! what do i do now, i'm screwed

stevejb 8mo ago

Isn't this like saying that if better woodworking tools come out, and you like woodworking, that woodworking somehow 'isn't your craft'. They said that their craft is about making things. There are woodworkers on YouTube who use CNC, some who use the best Festool stuff but nothing that moves on its own, and some who only use handtools. Where is the line at which woodworking is not their craft?

jstanley 8mo ago
The only confusion is in the use of the term "woodworking". For the power tool user, "woodworking with hand tools" isn't their craft. For the CNC user, "woodworking with manual machines" isn't their craft.
AstroBen 8mo ago
It's feeling much closer to hiring a woodworker to make you something, not woodworking tools
terminalbraid 8mo ago
The better analogy is you're now a shop manager or even just QA. You don't need to touch, look at, or think about the production process past asking for something and seeing if the final result fits the bill. You get something that looks like a cabinet because you asked for a cabinet. I don't consider that "woodworking craft", power tools or otherwise.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- sally_glance 8mo ago
  I'm pretty sure at least the better woodworking shop managers and QA people all have experience with woodworking and probably would also consider this their craft if asked.
- Xenoamorphous 8mo ago
  If it looks like a cabinet, works as a cabinet and doesn’t fall apart, by all intents and purposes it’s a cabinet. 99% of people out there won’t care if it was a “craftsman” or a robot built it. Just like most people buy furniture at Ikea.

seanmcdirmid 8mo ago

It is a different kind of code. Just a lot of programmers can’t grock it as such. I guess I started out as a programmer, then went to grad school and learned how to write and communicate my ideas, it has a lot in common with programming, but at a deeper level. Now I’m doing both with AI and it’s a lot of fun. It is just programming at a higher level.

light_hue_1 8mo ago

That's just gatekeeping. It was and is my craft. I've been doing it since grade 5. Like 30 years now. Writing tight assembly for robot controllers all the way to AI on MRI machines to security for the DoD and now the biggest AI on the planet. But my craft was not typing. It's coding. If you're typist you're going to mourn the printer. But if you're a writer you're going to see how the improves your life.

recursivegirth 8mo ago
Right, there is a non-zero overlap between the VIM Andy's and AI nay-sayers.
kelnos 8mo ago
A big component to coding is typing. If you aren't doing the typing, then, unless you are dictating code to someone else to mechanically, verbatim type out for you, you are not coding. I do believe directing an LLM to write code, and then reviewing and refining that code with the LLM, is a skill that has value -- a ton of value! -- but I do not think it is coding. It's more like super-technical product management, or like a tech lead pair programming with a junior, but in a sort of mentorship way where they direct and nudge the junior and stay as hands-off as possible. It's not coding, and once that's the sum total of what you do, you are no longer a coder. You can get defensive and call this gatekeeping, but I think it's just the new reality. There's no shame in admitting that you've moved to a stage of your life where you build software but your role in it isn't as a coder anymore. Just as there's no shame in moving into management, if that's what you enjoy and are effective at it. (If presenting credentials is important to you, as you've done, I've been doing this since 1989, when I was 8 years old. I've gone down to embedded devices, up through desktop software, up to large distributed systems. Coding is my passion, and has been for most of my life.)
- light_hue_1 8mo ago
  Assembling code doesn't require typing. Linking doesn't require typing. Even though once upon a time both did. Claiming that this isn't coding is as absurd as saying that coding is only what you do when you hook up the wires between some vacuum tubes. The LLM is a very smart compiler. That's all. Some people want to sit and write assembly. Good for them. But asserting that unless I assemble my own code I'm not a coder is just silly.

iambateman 8mo ago

I’m going to be thinking about this comment for a while—-and I think you’re basically right. Almost none of the code I wrote in 2015 is still in use today. Probably some percentage of people can point to code that lasted 20 years or longer, but it can’t be a big percentage. When I think of the work of a craft, I think of doing work which is capable of standing up for a long time. A great builder can make a house that can last for a thousand years and a potter can make a bowl that lasts just as long. I’ve thought of myself as a craftsman of code for a long time but maybe that was just wrong.

fullstackchris 8mo ago

so much garbage ego in statements like this. if you really knew about software, you'd recognize there are about a million ways to be successful in this field