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Brookhaven Lab's RHIC concludes 25-year run with final collisions
- davrosthedalek 8mo agoThis is in preparation for starting construction work on the Electron-Ion-Collider (EIC) which will use the same tunnel and experiment locations.
- gnufx 8mo agoAs I recall, RHIC itself replaced some cancelled project. I remember the tunnel being at least partly there in the mid-80s, with a plan to trundle ions from the tandem lab through a crazy long beamline across the site and stop nuclear structure research there as a result.
- phongn 8mo agoISABELLE, which was a cancelled proton-proton collider. Major delays with its magnet design meant that it was overtaken by existing programs at CERN and Fermilab. RHIC reused its hall.
- webdevver 8mo agoas a layperson, it seems the whole collider stuff has not been a very fruitful scientific direction so far (has there been any discovery made with the help of a collider that found its way into an industrial product?) maybe we are trying to 'jump' the tech tree too much - perhaps the first step was to create a much smarter entity than ourselves, and then letting it have a look at the collider data.
- pfdietz 8mo agoLook at it this way: they are investigating phenomena that require a collider-sized object to see. So unless your application involves a collider sized object, it won't use any effect they discover. The problem is that fundamental physics has moved too far beyond the scales where we operate.
- tehnub 8mo agoI don't think that argument holds up. See quantum mechanics.
- pfdietz 8mo agoQuantum mechanics is demonstrable on a lab bench (or smaller), so your counterargument is completely wrong. Any useful consequence of a physical effect is, in effect, an experiment that could test that effect. So if the smallest test is with a machine the size of a small country, no device using the effect can be smaller.
- tehnub 8mo agoThey’re using big things to do experiments. Maybe they discover some new physical effect. How do you know that that effect couldn’t be demonstrated in some smaller scale experiment after it’s understood better?
- pfdietz 8mo agoCan you tell me of an example where that has happened? I can't think of any.
- T-A 8mo agoEffective field theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_field_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_field_theory demonstrably works up to the electroweak scale, which requires an LHC-sized machine to probe.
- AIorNot 8mo agoI hate to be harsh but this mentality is part of the decline of this country (that is so evident with loss of manufacturing, open and free science and tech robber barons oligarchs that have taken over our national discourse) Brookhaven was instrumental to Nobel winning discoveries and Stony Brook was a great science minded university I’m not opposed to investing in AI but its not a zero sum game and we are not a country of data centers alone
- pfdietz 8mo agoAt some point physics entitlement has to end -- why not here? We can't just keep scaling up the size and cost of fundamental physics experiments. Eventually the cost becomes so large that platitudinous arguments for them don't work.
- micromacrofoot 8mo agoWe absolutely can, and I reckon we will... this is like a fraction of a percent of science funding which is a fraction of a percent of GDP, we spend more on maintaining warheads we can't use 10% of the US military budget for one year could build a 100km collider, RHIC is 4km
- pfdietz 8mo ago[flagged]
- micromacrofoot 8mo agoThe point is that there's so much bad spending that by comparison this is practically nothing to shake a stick at, and it produces actual science.
- pfdietz 8mo ago[flagged]
- Keyframe 8mo agothis particular collider or particle accelerators in general? Cyclotrons are rather useful, for example.
- GreyZephyr 8mo agoThe web would be one of the more well known technologies to come out of running collider experiments. More directly a whole lot of medical imaging including PET is only possible because of either isotopes manufactured through colliders or sensors developed in colliders.
- gnufx 8mo agoSince when were industrial products the purpose? Why do you think my colleagues can't analyse LHC data and discover the Higgs particle? The article says RHIC was a considerable scientific success.
- atoav 8mo agoYeah, one of them is used by you right now. The Internet.
- WJW 8mo agohttps://physicsworld.com/a/what-have-particle-accelerators-ever-done-for-us/ https://physicsworld.com/a/what-have-particle-accelerators-e...
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- juanjmanfredi 8mo agoParticle physicists working on collider experiments were among the first people that needed to deal with large quantities of digitally stored data. As a result, advances in the particle and nuclear physics have fed advances in computing, and vice versa [0]. The World Wide Web was invented at CERN, the largest particle physics and accelerator laboratory in the world [1]. Another example more relevant to this post is when a few physicists developed a CouchDB-based solution to handle the large amounts of data generated by their RHIC and CERN experiments. They spun that out into Cloudant, which was one of the pioneers for DBaaS [2]. [0] https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-coevolution-of-particle-physics-and-computing https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-coevolution-of-... [1] https://home.cern/science/computing/birth-web/short-history-web https://home.cern/science/computing/birth-web/short-history-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudant
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago> has there been any discovery made with the help of a collider that found its way into an industrial product? Yes. SLAC has an excellent public-lecture series that touches on industrial uses of particle colliders [1]. If you want a concrete example, "four basic technologies have been developed to generate EUV light sources:" (1) synchrotron radiation, (2) discharge-produced plasma, (3) free-elecron lasers (FELs) and (4) laser-produced plasma [2]. Synchrotrons are circular colliders. FELs came out of linear colliders [3]. (China has them too [4].) We have modern semiconductors because we built colliders. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M6sjEYCE2I&list=PLFDBBAE492FBAF753 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M6sjEYCE2I&list=PLFDBBAE492... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S270947232200017X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S270947232... [3] https://lcls.slac.stanford.edu https://lcls.slac.stanford.edu [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Synchrotron_Radiation_Facility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Synchrotron_Radiation...
- gnufx 8mo agoIn the context of the article "collider" means intersecting particle beams, like in RHIC and LHC, which obviously involves rather low probability interactions, as opposed to accelerators which slam a beam into a dense target (like the SLAC accelerator). In a synchrotron light source you want the beam to circulate and specifically not collide with anything; they were developed from particle physics accelerators, of course.
- slashdave 8mo agoSLAC had a collider
- mgibbs63 8mo agoI think there's a strong argument that the most useful product from collider science is the synchrotron light source. Researchers using collider rings realized that the x-ray synchrotron light these rings emit (an inconvenience to collider physics people) was a fantastic tool for structural biology and materials science. Eventually, they built dedicated electron storage rings that don't do collisions at all - the main goal is producing bright X-ray beams. Synchrotron light sources have had wide-ranging, concrete impacts on "industrial products" that you probably use every day via studies in: - Drug discovery (Tamiflu and Paxlovid are good examples) - Battery technology (X-ray studies of how/why batteries degrade over time has lead to better designs) - EUV photolithography techniques - Giant Magetoresistance (Important for high capacity spinning-disk hard drives)
- gnufx 8mo agoIndeed. The first dedicated light -- for various values of "light" -- source[1] repurposed the tunnel and various bits and techniques from the particle physics accelerator it replaced, and on which parasitic "light" measurements were made previously. See also [2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_Radiation_Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_Radiation_Source 2. https://www.ukri.org/publications/new-light-on-science-socioeconomic-impact-study-of-daresbury-srs/ https://www.ukri.org/publications/new-light-on-science-socio...
- magicalhippo 8mo ago> has there been any discovery made with the help of a collider that found its way into an industrial product? Accelerators and colliders have had a profound impact on medical sciences. Nuclear isotopes used for nuclear medicine[1] is often produced by cyclotrons[2], the accelerator component of circular colliders. The detectors[3] used in things like PET scanners are based on detectors used in collision experiments[4]. Using protons to treat cancer was an idea that came directly from work on cyclotrons[5]. Using the tools developed to simulate how the collision fallout interact with the detectors at LHC[6] has been incorporated into radiotherapy to more accurately compute required doses[7][8]. > perhaps the first step was to create a much smarter entity than ourselves, and then letting it have a look at the collider data We are actually data starved, we have lots of good ideas but no way to test them. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_medicine#Sources_of_radionuclides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_medicine#Sources_of_ra... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotron [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_camera [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintigraphy#Process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintigraphy#Process [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_therapy#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_therapy#History [6]: https://kt.cern/technologies/geant4 https://kt.cern/technologies/geant4 [7]: https://aapm.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mp.17678 https://aapm.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mp.17678 [8]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405428325000103 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240542832...
- whatshisface 8mo agoColliders have been the source of almost everything we know about the fundamental nature of reality. That makes them a fruitful scientific direction.
- mmooss 8mo agoVery much yes: Knowledge is valuable itself. We're discovering the secrets of the universe. The owners of capital have created an amazing, self-serving ideology in the US (and elsehwere): If something doesn't help them make money, it's worthless. People seem to think that's part of the US - in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. Even more amazing is that I hear scholars in non-profitable fields parrot those ideas. I think capitalism - and especially free markets - work well in many ways, but it's a means to an end, not a religion. Capitalism serves us, not vice-versa.
- thesmtsolver2 8mo agoThis is not a capitalism issue. During the communist revolution, scientists were persecuted if their work was too "intellectual" and didn't have immediate use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_Old_Ninth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_Old_Ninth https://www.culturalrevolutionceramics.com/object-details/down-with-the-stinking-old-ninth https://www.culturalrevolutionceramics.com/object-details/do...
- mmooss 8mo agoThe Church of Capitalism (as opposed to small-c capitalism) is the ideology of here and now; that's what I was talking about. The capitalist-communist dichotomy - a favorite of ideologues in both groups - is not something I was referring to.
- direwolf20 8mo agoThere can be more than one religion with similar beliefs.
- phongn 8mo agoTevatron’s construction program built up a lot of industrial capacity for superconducting magnets. This was by design, in the hopes that it would drive induced demand for them. One of the first beneficiaries were MRI machines, which became a lot more affordable to produce. The DOE hoped to repeat that success in the 1990s with the much larger SSC, but it was cancelled.
- slashdave 8mo ago> has there been any discovery made with the help of a collider that found its way into an industrial product? That's not why they were built > then letting it have a look at the collider data. I don't think you understand how collider data is analyzed
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- direwolf20 8mo agoWhat would that entity do exactly?
- tahoeskibum 8mo agoHow time passes! I remember touring the RHIC tunnels back in 1999 when it was being made.
- buildsjets 8mo ago[flagged]
- jiggawatts 8mo agoIt may help alleviate your concerns somewhat to know that these scientists weren’t completely irresponsible: Cesium 137 is a gamma emitter, which means that it doesn’t make things around it radioactive (unlike most fissionable elements such as Uranium or Plutonium). This was mentioned in one of the articles you linked!
- buildsjets 8mo agoAnd you are proposing that none of the Cesium 137 escaped into the ambient environment during the 19 year exposure period? That is statistically impossible. The source had ha mechanical shutter that allowed it to be directly exposed to the environment for almost 20 years, with no human to maintain it. Corrosion, spalling, and release of radioactive material though freeze-thaw cycles are all ways that bits of the source can become liberated. Are you also proposing that this was the only experiment that released radionuclides into the environment at BNL? I certainly remember the furor of them getting caught pissing tritium into the groundwater. I am sure there are many, many things they did which were not detected. https://www.gao.gov/products/rced-98-26 https://www.gao.gov/products/rced-98-26 It is well know and well documented that the defense industry has taken a cavalier approach to public nuclear safety from it’s very inception. And make no mistake, BNL exists primarily as a national defense asset.
- jiggawatts 8mo agoGamma rays will cheerfully go right through centimetres (an inch) or so of solid metal, there’s no need to directly expose the Caesium to the environment! These radiation sources are usually very solid metal containers with their lids welded permanently shut. Not to mention that these sources usually contain water-soluble salts of caesium. Hence, hermetically sealing the sources is essential, especially for outdoors use.
- gnufx 8mo ago
- syntaxing 8mo agoI worked at BNL during college days through the SULI program! Some of my peers from college is working there full time now too. I got to work on some really cool stuff but unfortunately a lot of the tenured researcher I knew have seem to left. I heard a lot of researchers left during Trump’s first term.
- ephimetheus 8mo agosPHENIX uses software that we’ve worked on at CERN to do some of their reconstruction!
- frob 8mo agoI spent days and days inside the STAR control room in grad school, often during the 12:30am-7:30am graveyard shift. We needed to run 24/7 for efficiency reasons during the experimental season. Getting superconductors down to temp is costly, so once you get it there, it is go time all the time. You had to stay on top of all the detectors and triggers, since every minute of beam time cost around $1k. You often sat around doing little, probably working on other research, and then would need to drop everything to reboot a detector so we could get back to collecting data. RHIC is dead. Long live eRHIC.
- divbzero 8mo agoThanks for contributing to research. What was the “experimental season”? Why was there an experimental season vs. running RHIC all year?
- awjlogan 8mo agoMaintainance and upgrades. These big shared facilities they are shutdown regularly and researchers work flat out while they're up.
- scheme271 8mo agoDoesn't power costs also affect shutdown periods? I know that CERN would shutdown in winter due to increased power costs and power demands around then. I suppose something similar may affect accelerators in the US.
- fyredge 8mo agoCost of electricity. Accelerators consume huge amounts of power and require the appropriate infrastructure. For example in RIKEN, Japan, agreement is made beforehand with electric companies to provide power to the accelerator during specific spring and fall months, where demand for air conditioner and heaters are at the lowest.
- wildzzz 8mo agoNSRL is like $7k/hr and required over a dozen physicists when running the beam. The point is to get the most amount of experiments performed while everyone is available to do so. We would work like a 12 hour day when running tests at NSRL without any days off until we were done.
- vvpan 8mo agoMy father worked on PHOENIX for over a decade and I got to watch all the equipment being assembled as a teen, unforgettable to have spent time so close to "big science". During budget cuts Jim Simons paid to keep the accelerator running.