5 ms·

To make matters worse, they are using Django. I can't take the EU serious any more.

by superze 8mo ago

ffsm8 8mo ago
What issue do you have with Django? This is not a situation where you'll have thousands of people editing the same document, that'd be insane with Django for sure - but at general collaboration tooling with <100 (random number I made up) editing, Django is unlikely gonna be the bottleneck
- spwa4 8mo ago
  Does it really need explaining why Office 365/Google Docs cannot be written in Django?
  - cromka 8mo ago
    Yes
    - busterarm 8mo ago
      This is very obvious. What part of your document editor needs to be backed by a relational database? Why use an MVT system if you don't need the Model part of it?
      - ffsm8 8mo ago
        https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/blob/main/src/backend/core/models.py https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/blob/main/src/backend... I see, in your broad and experienced mind, document editors don't have users, permissions, and the whole document management itself, comments on lines/threads, reactions on comments Seriously, theyre all as cookie cutter perfect usecase for Django as you can get, but I guess you haven't actually thought about the domain and just wanted to take a dumb on other devs with intern-to-junior level insights
        busterarm 8mo ago
        You don't necessarily need that to get these things...
        ffsm8 8mo ago
        Obviously, you don't need the model abstraction for any software, ever. It is just more or less suited for a domain. And in this case, as would be obvious from thinking about it, the only part it's not suited for is the live syncing of the text edit on the frontend, which is one one small part of the whole.
        busterarm 8mo ago
        Storing the text documents themselves in a relational database is itself a terrible idea.
        ffsm8 8mo ago
        It's not a bad idea, generally. it depends on the implementation. If you're updating it multiple times per second, then yes, it's a bad idea. Now go check if they're doing it or you're just suggesting from the dunning kruger symptom.
  - victorbjorklund 8mo ago
    Would love to hear that explanation why it is IMPOSSIBLE (not that Rust would be faster or use less resources but why it can’t be written)
- superze 8mo ago
  My issue is latency. Django is extremely slow.
speedgoose 8mo ago
What would you use instead?
- spwa4 8mo ago
  Something like this that's proven itself: https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-by-3x/ https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-... TLDR: C++, WASM, and some form of GRPC with C++ on the server side as well. Because you need a language that's fast, can contain high complexity and large programs without collapsing (which is a short list of languages) and can work fast for the bits that need speed.
  - speedgoose 8mo ago
    I’m my opinion, you have to be kinda masochist to choose C++ for this. Web development is hard in C++. But thanks for answering honestly.
    - spwa4 8mo ago
      In my opinion one inherent property of languages is how large the largest program is that can be written in those languages. There's languages that work well for short programs. Bash, perl are examples on one end of the spectrum. Then you have things like lisp and Python where the largest programs are a lot larger already, but still hit obvious limits. And then you have the languages that support really large codebases. Java, C++ are ones currently in use. There's new languages where it's a bit of an open question still where they lie on the spectrum. Go would be one of them. I'd guess somewhere between Python and Java. Javascript I would argue is between perl and python. And Rust ... well ... good question. An office suite is a gigantic application, which will need feature upon feature upon feature upon feature. If you want it working on the web, I'd propose something like C++ and WASM.
    - irishcoffee 8mo ago
      Wt actually isn’t terrible, with the added benefit of being able to leverage the enormous c/c++ library ecosystem. Also, it can be quite fast if you care for it to be. Edit: also appears to be based in the eu, how fitting for this thread. https://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt https://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
shimman 8mo ago
What an asinine comment, Django is good enough for several billion dollar companies. It's probably good enough to use in a government capacity too.
- cbdevidal 8mo ago
  It really depends on how it’s used. I love Django in certain specific situations. You know that saying though about when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail…
KingOfCoders 8mo ago
What has that to do with the EU?
innocentoldguy 8mo ago
Django is perfectly capable. I'd use Phoenix for its scalability and performance, if it were me, but I've built large-scale projects in Django before, and it worked well.
sgt 8mo ago
Read this (among other articles on the same subject): https://medium.com/@tk512/django-scales-stop-blaming-the-framework-part-1-of-3-a2b5b0ff811f https://medium.com/@tk512/django-scales-stop-blaming-the-fra...
_el1s7 8mo ago
At least it's not Laravel or .NET lol.

To make matters worse, they are using Django. I can't take the EU serious any more.

by superze 8mo ago

To make matters worse, they are using Django. I can't take the EU serious any more.

ffsm8 8mo ago

What issue do you have with Django? This is not a situation where you'll have thousands of people editing the same document, that'd be insane with Django for sure - but at general collaboration tooling with <100 (random number I made up) editing, Django is unlikely gonna be the bottleneck

spwa4 8mo ago
Does it really need explaining why Office 365/Google Docs cannot be written in Django?
- cromka 8mo ago
  Yes
  - busterarm 8mo ago
    This is very obvious. What part of your document editor needs to be backed by a relational database? Why use an MVT system if you don't need the Model part of it?
    - ffsm8 8mo ago
      https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/blob/main/src/backend/core/models.py https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/blob/main/src/backend... I see, in your broad and experienced mind, document editors don't have users, permissions, and the whole document management itself, comments on lines/threads, reactions on comments Seriously, theyre all as cookie cutter perfect usecase for Django as you can get, but I guess you haven't actually thought about the domain and just wanted to take a dumb on other devs with intern-to-junior level insights
      - busterarm 8mo ago
        You don't necessarily need that to get these things...
        ffsm8 8mo ago
        Obviously, you don't need the model abstraction for any software, ever. It is just more or less suited for a domain. And in this case, as would be obvious from thinking about it, the only part it's not suited for is the live syncing of the text edit on the frontend, which is one one small part of the whole.
        busterarm 8mo ago
        Storing the text documents themselves in a relational database is itself a terrible idea.
        ffsm8 8mo ago
        It's not a bad idea, generally. it depends on the implementation. If you're updating it multiple times per second, then yes, it's a bad idea. Now go check if they're doing it or you're just suggesting from the dunning kruger symptom.
- victorbjorklund 8mo ago
  Would love to hear that explanation why it is IMPOSSIBLE (not that Rust would be faster or use less resources but why it can’t be written)
superze 8mo ago
My issue is latency. Django is extremely slow.

speedgoose 8mo ago

What would you use instead?

spwa4 8mo ago
Something like this that's proven itself: https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-by-3x/ https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-... TLDR: C++, WASM, and some form of GRPC with C++ on the server side as well. Because you need a language that's fast, can contain high complexity and large programs without collapsing (which is a short list of languages) and can work fast for the bits that need speed.
- speedgoose 8mo ago
  I’m my opinion, you have to be kinda masochist to choose C++ for this. Web development is hard in C++. But thanks for answering honestly.
  - spwa4 8mo ago
    In my opinion one inherent property of languages is how large the largest program is that can be written in those languages. There's languages that work well for short programs. Bash, perl are examples on one end of the spectrum. Then you have things like lisp and Python where the largest programs are a lot larger already, but still hit obvious limits. And then you have the languages that support really large codebases. Java, C++ are ones currently in use. There's new languages where it's a bit of an open question still where they lie on the spectrum. Go would be one of them. I'd guess somewhere between Python and Java. Javascript I would argue is between perl and python. And Rust ... well ... good question. An office suite is a gigantic application, which will need feature upon feature upon feature upon feature. If you want it working on the web, I'd propose something like C++ and WASM.
  - irishcoffee 8mo ago
    Wt actually isn’t terrible, with the added benefit of being able to leverage the enormous c/c++ library ecosystem. Also, it can be quite fast if you care for it to be. Edit: also appears to be based in the eu, how fitting for this thread. https://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt https://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt

shimman 8mo ago

What an asinine comment, Django is good enough for several billion dollar companies. It's probably good enough to use in a government capacity too.

cbdevidal 8mo ago
It really depends on how it’s used. I love Django in certain specific situations. You know that saying though about when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail…

KingOfCoders 8mo ago

What has that to do with the EU?

innocentoldguy 8mo ago

Django is perfectly capable. I'd use Phoenix for its scalability and performance, if it were me, but I've built large-scale projects in Django before, and it worked well.

sgt 8mo ago

Read this (among other articles on the same subject): https://medium.com/@tk512/django-scales-stop-blaming-the-framework-part-1-of-3-a2b5b0ff811f https://medium.com/@tk512/django-scales-stop-blaming-the-fra...

_el1s7 8mo ago

At least it's not Laravel or .NET lol.