6 ms·

> how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't thi

> how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't think you should be able to do that so they throw a little money to the right politician At least 25 years. That's the time passed since the first introduction of Eurion marks on banknotes. As far as I know, noone has used it to block reproduction of anything other than money.

tobyjsullivan 8mo ago
No idea why this comment is getting downvoted so hard. This was exactly what I thought of too, and it provides a concrete answer to the question. There’s valid concern with these types of laws and scope creep. But there’s also precedent which shows they can work and be applied reasonably.
rustyhancock 8mo ago
Is this true? Couldn't I put the mark on a page of my book and photocopiers would still detect and refuse to copy that page?
- ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
  Yes, absolutely. It's a pattern of five rings, well-documented although Omron appears to keep the exact details pretty tightly held. They don't have to be exact circles, they just have to be some dots in about the right place. In the UK, the Bank of England issued notes with Elgar on them and the EURion constellation picked out in musical notes ;-)
Arch-TK 8mo ago
EURion marks are a feature you must include on your banknote for it to even be considered real. And it's _one_ feature. It's relatively trivial to make a chip which can detect their presence. On the other hand, if I need a replacement part for something, it's unlikely I will find the manufacturer giving me models for it. And if a manufacturer is giving me models for it, they probably do so with the explicit expectation that I might end up using them to manufacture a replacement. In most cases either me or some other volunteer will need to measure the existing part, write down all the critical measurements, and then design a new part from scratch in CAD. Even if somehow you are able to fingerprint on those critical measurements, that's just _one_ part. The only way this kind of nonsense law could work is if you mandate that 3D printers must not accept commands from an untrusted source (signature verification) and then you must have software which uses a database to check for such critical measurements, ideally _before_ slicing. Except that still doesn't work because I can always post-process a part to fit. And it doesn't work even more because the software will need to contain a signing key. Unless the signing key is on a remote server somewhere to which you must send your model for validation. This is never going to work, or scale. There are even more hurdles... I can design and build a 3D printer from scratch and manufacture it using non-CNC machined parts at home. A working, high quality 3D printer. Where are you going to force me to put the locks? Are you going to require me to show my ID when buying stepper motors and stepper motor drivers? What about other kinds of manufacturing (that these laws, at least the Washington State ones, also cover)? Will you ban old hardware? What about a milling machine? Are you going to ban non-CNC mills? These are the most ignorant laws made by the most ignorant people. The easiest way to ban people from manufacturing their own guns is to ban manufacture of your own guns. But again, this is a complete non-issue in the US where you can probably get a gun illegally more easily than you can 3D print something half as reliable.
- anthk 8mo ago
  As an European I'd say any USAnite can almost get a gun with breakfast cereal boxes. But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over.
  - joe_mamba 8mo ago
    > But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over. Pretty sure those 50 thousand or so civilians killed on the street in the recent Iranian protests/riots would have been a lot less, if all those Iranians had easy access to guns, and not just the government. Drones are not enough, you still need boots on the ground for you to claim control over a territory, and boots on the ground think twice about signing up for service if that includes facing armed mobs with guns on a daily basis. So no, mobs with guns are not obsolete.
    - anthk 8mo ago
      Mob with guns would be useless against the Iranian Guards which are pretty much elite commandos.
      - joe_mamba 8mo ago
        What's the commando to civilian ratio in Iran?
        mschuster91 8mo ago
        Let's do some napkin math: Iran has about 94 million people. Iran's IRGC alone has a personnel count of 125.000 [1], of which about 2-5000 are estimated to be the elite of the elite ("Quds Force"). Together with the Basij (anywhere from 100-600k) that alone is a sufficient amount of force. And on top of that come maybe 400-500k of the regular Iranian Armed Forces [2], as well as about 260k active police+100k police reservists. So, if one sees the whole of IRGC plus Basij as the "commandos", they alone form an active elite of about 0.5%, if one sees the entirety of the military+police we're looking at easily 2-3 million units, so up to 2%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Co... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Armed_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Armed...
ale42 8mo ago
Actually I tried to use it just for fun on some vouchers, but it didn't work on the copy machines I tried. They just happily photocopied the vouchers.
- krater23 8mo ago
  Tried the same, doesn't do anything on my scanner. Interestingly, there are regions of banknotes my scanner refuses to scan. But had no time to investigate further.
  - ale42 8mo ago
    Some more tests on this old page: https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/ https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/ (2004)
JasonADrury 8mo ago
Lots non-currency of documents around the world with EURion marks. If you're a secure printing shop and your business model primarily revolves around impressing your clients with long lists of document security features, it'd be malpractice to not implement this kind of padding.
AlOwain 8mo ago
That isn't true though, coupons, boarding passes, and even confidential documents use Eurion marks. It's not everywhere because it isn't worthwhile going through the hassle of getting printers that can print them; while 3D printing OEM parts would be much more valuable.
- klausa 8mo ago
  Who issues Eurion-marked boarding passes? That strikes me as extremely counterproductive given the actually sensitive part of a BP is an (outside of the US) unsigned, semi-publicly-documented barcode.
  - johann8384 8mo ago
    It would be extra counterproductive since you can print your own boarding pass.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- ndsipa_pomu 8mo ago
  When flying with easyJet, we can just print boarding passes using any old printer. As long as the number matches up, no security is required.
jrockway 8mo ago
When I was in college I wrote a computer program (yes, involving yellow text) that couldn't be photocopied because I put the "o"s in the right place to trigger the eurion-finding algorithm. People thought it was neat.
PunchyHamster 8mo ago
Suuure buddy, we just need to throw away every gun and introduce new ones with special marks telling software not copy. Go ahead, try that

tobyjsullivan 8mo ago

No idea why this comment is getting downvoted so hard. This was exactly what I thought of too, and it provides a concrete answer to the question. There’s valid concern with these types of laws and scope creep. But there’s also precedent which shows they can work and be applied reasonably.

rustyhancock 8mo ago

Is this true? Couldn't I put the mark on a page of my book and photocopiers would still detect and refuse to copy that page?

ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
Yes, absolutely. It's a pattern of five rings, well-documented although Omron appears to keep the exact details pretty tightly held. They don't have to be exact circles, they just have to be some dots in about the right place. In the UK, the Bank of England issued notes with Elgar on them and the EURion constellation picked out in musical notes ;-)

Arch-TK 8mo ago

EURion marks are a feature you must include on your banknote for it to even be considered real. And it's _one_ feature. It's relatively trivial to make a chip which can detect their presence. On the other hand, if I need a replacement part for something, it's unlikely I will find the manufacturer giving me models for it. And if a manufacturer is giving me models for it, they probably do so with the explicit expectation that I might end up using them to manufacture a replacement. In most cases either me or some other volunteer will need to measure the existing part, write down all the critical measurements, and then design a new part from scratch in CAD. Even if somehow you are able to fingerprint on those critical measurements, that's just _one_ part. The only way this kind of nonsense law could work is if you mandate that 3D printers must not accept commands from an untrusted source (signature verification) and then you must have software which uses a database to check for such critical measurements, ideally _before_ slicing. Except that still doesn't work because I can always post-process a part to fit. And it doesn't work even more because the software will need to contain a signing key. Unless the signing key is on a remote server somewhere to which you must send your model for validation. This is never going to work, or scale. There are even more hurdles... I can design and build a 3D printer from scratch and manufacture it using non-CNC machined parts at home. A working, high quality 3D printer. Where are you going to force me to put the locks? Are you going to require me to show my ID when buying stepper motors and stepper motor drivers? What about other kinds of manufacturing (that these laws, at least the Washington State ones, also cover)? Will you ban old hardware? What about a milling machine? Are you going to ban non-CNC mills? These are the most ignorant laws made by the most ignorant people. The easiest way to ban people from manufacturing their own guns is to ban manufacture of your own guns. But again, this is a complete non-issue in the US where you can probably get a gun illegally more easily than you can 3D print something half as reliable.

anthk 8mo ago
As an European I'd say any USAnite can almost get a gun with breakfast cereal boxes. But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over.
- joe_mamba 8mo ago
  > But weapons' culture in the US it's obsolete. Militias can't do shit against tyranical govs because once they send drones it's game over. Pretty sure those 50 thousand or so civilians killed on the street in the recent Iranian protests/riots would have been a lot less, if all those Iranians had easy access to guns, and not just the government. Drones are not enough, you still need boots on the ground for you to claim control over a territory, and boots on the ground think twice about signing up for service if that includes facing armed mobs with guns on a daily basis. So no, mobs with guns are not obsolete.
  - anthk 8mo ago
    Mob with guns would be useless against the Iranian Guards which are pretty much elite commandos.
    - joe_mamba 8mo ago
      What's the commando to civilian ratio in Iran?
      - mschuster91 8mo ago
        Let's do some napkin math: Iran has about 94 million people. Iran's IRGC alone has a personnel count of 125.000 [1], of which about 2-5000 are estimated to be the elite of the elite ("Quds Force"). Together with the Basij (anywhere from 100-600k) that alone is a sufficient amount of force. And on top of that come maybe 400-500k of the regular Iranian Armed Forces [2], as well as about 260k active police+100k police reservists. So, if one sees the whole of IRGC plus Basij as the "commandos", they alone form an active elite of about 0.5%, if one sees the entirety of the military+police we're looking at easily 2-3 million units, so up to 2%. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Co... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Armed_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Armed...

ale42 8mo ago

Actually I tried to use it just for fun on some vouchers, but it didn't work on the copy machines I tried. They just happily photocopied the vouchers.

krater23 8mo ago
Tried the same, doesn't do anything on my scanner. Interestingly, there are regions of banknotes my scanner refuses to scan. But had no time to investigate further.
- ale42 8mo ago
  Some more tests on this old page: https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/ https://murdoch.is/projects/currency/ (2004)

JasonADrury 8mo ago

Lots non-currency of documents around the world with EURion marks. If you're a secure printing shop and your business model primarily revolves around impressing your clients with long lists of document security features, it'd be malpractice to not implement this kind of padding.

AlOwain 8mo ago

That isn't true though, coupons, boarding passes, and even confidential documents use Eurion marks. It's not everywhere because it isn't worthwhile going through the hassle of getting printers that can print them; while 3D printing OEM parts would be much more valuable.

klausa 8mo ago
Who issues Eurion-marked boarding passes? That strikes me as extremely counterproductive given the actually sensitive part of a BP is an (outside of the US) unsigned, semi-publicly-documented barcode.
- johann8384 8mo ago
  It would be extra counterproductive since you can print your own boarding pass.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
ndsipa_pomu 8mo ago
When flying with easyJet, we can just print boarding passes using any old printer. As long as the number matches up, no security is required.

jrockway 8mo ago

When I was in college I wrote a computer program (yes, involving yellow text) that couldn't be photocopied because I put the "o"s in the right place to trigger the eurion-finding algorithm. People thought it was neat.

PunchyHamster 8mo ago

Suuure buddy, we just need to throw away every gun and introduce new ones with special marks telling software not copy. Go ahead, try that