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This is the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades. Look at where China is today.

by wtodr 8mo ago

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades Nope. It isn’t. Xi has ruled China like a dictator that breaks the tradition of intraparty competition the CCP has had since Mao. When Xi ended his Wolf Warrior nonsense it seemed to signal a reset. Now we have this nonsense. > Look at where China is today Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. Both are growing their economies, militaries and territorial ambitions. Both have serious issues, including the gerontocratic oligarchic consolidation of power at the expense of national interests.
- SilverElfin 8mo ago
  Not that I disagree, but I’m curious how you define national interests.
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > curious how you define national interests My metric would be what the country’s population today and weighted populations of the future, if they could weigh in, would choose. It’s possible to frame ex post facto and impossible to pin down in the present. And it’s inherently subjective and culturally relative. But it’s useful to reason with, including for finding patterns in history. One pattern is the cost of corruption. If a leader is making billions off their power, they’re putting person about polity. That’s currently true in America [1] and China [2][3]. The difference is America has a chance to fix that in ‘28. China used to rotate leaders. But Xi fucked that up. (Note the language similarity between the above comment and how MAGA defends itself. “Trite bullshit.” Beijing has a hidden MACA problem, it’s just had a tougher time dealing with it because Xi reveres Mao.) [1] https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/spy-sheikh-secret-stake-trump-crypto-tahnoon-ea4d97e8?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqf5Jz1IFKIvUKWJz3j6LC0u4uyAvT7IM4I7Ddh_Qj0cFSKMHJSNo4fC&gaa_ts=69826954&gaa_sig=u7ikE2qD_u6xufmqE5nl7bZIjQGBE88QP8mnoacPuYZt9R2tbkh4kLAsg-tieoSWxemr8gF1ZJ-WbT-i9gCuVA%3D%3D https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/spy-sheikh-secret-stake-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chinas-president-xi-jinping-investments.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chinas-preside... [3] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/mar/20/us-intel-says-chinas-xi-jinping-holds-1-billion-hidden-wealth-family/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/mar/20/us-intel-sa...
    - SilverElfin 8mo ago
      Can’t weighted population of the future change based on what is chosen? For example by immigration and deportations? Also is MACA actually MCGA? Or something else? Aren’t there similar trends also in Europe and India?
- blibble 8mo ago
  > Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. just don't look at the first derivative vs china
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    The argument is the reflexive defensiveness works-and is raised—in both cases. Premature declarations of victory have never been a historic sign of strength.
tartoran 8mo ago
Keep in mind that China is not where it is today because of Xi. He could take it further for sure but so can he press the wrong buttons. It remains to be seen how China fares in the next few decades.
- fakedang 8mo ago
  Yep, China was on a massive and insane growth trajectory prior to Xi. Xi's policies and constant banging of war drums at Taiwan's door has cost China massively in terms of foreign investment and even knowledge transfer opportunities (by the ever-gullible West).
  - aurareturn 8mo ago
    Western powers were never going to let China rise peacefully. As soon as China started designing phones instead of just manufacturing them, the west become much more "China bad". Had nothing to do with Xi.
- RobotToaster 8mo ago
  He's doing a better job than Zhao Ziyang, that's for sure.
  - tartoran 8mo ago
    I'm not convinced that it could be attributable to Xi. China has been on this trajectory before he became the leader.
- chii 8mo ago
  > It remains to be seen how China fares in the next few decades. it is easy to continue on momentum alone.
  - rbanffy 8mo ago
    They have the numbers on their side - IIRC they have more STEM grads than the US has workforce, and they graduate a lot more every year. Apple alone spends about a Marshal Plan per year in high-tech manufacturing, for what the know-how remains in China to manufacture other high-tech products. I think Tim Cook mentioned that no company outside China could make their MacBook shells up to the specs they need. The product is "designed in Cupertino", but the machine that builds it is designed, made, and operated in China. Multiply that by the number of companies who spend heavily in China for manufacturing, indirectly causing their advanced manufacturing industry to grow beyond anyone else's and it seems inevitable.
baxtr 8mo ago
The question is rather: Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier?
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier? Or without Mao being a trash fire of a leader. (Flip side: where would they be without Deng or Zemin, or others in the CCP who put nation above personal interest? The folks Xi is killing because they threaten his personal interests.)
  - baxtr 8mo ago
    Maybe the combination of capitalism + democracy is so successful because it aligns the incentives of leaders and the masses best (to the extent possible).
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      My takeaway from China is democracy is less important than political competition. Between Mao and Xi, the CCP had the latter without the former. Today, America has the former and is struggling to keep the latter.
      - baxtr 8mo ago
        Yes agreed. But competition for what? I'd say for the good of the majority of the people. In other systems only those on top profit (maybe 10-20% max) even if they claim otherwise. Thus democracy, through competition, aligns the leader's incentive with their people best.
        justinclift 8mo ago
        > In other systems only those on top profit Are you saying the US isn't doing that presently?
subw00f 8mo ago
It's amazing. The American president is quite literally creating a parallel military force to jail and kill people on the streets, they're arresting opposing journalists, politicians, pressuring tv channels and news organizations to fire people, invading countries without congressional approval, threatening allies with annexation for no fucking reason, dismantling any social programs left, and all of that led by a proven pedophile billionaire that was the customer and friend of a huge human trafficker, as were most of his billionaire friends who he favors with absolutely no shame. And this is just the latest news coming from over there. I won't mention the fact that there are people alive today who couldn't drink from the same fountain as other people because their skin is dark. It was never fucking great. So if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed down your throat by half a dozen mega companies that are in bed with your regime. So yeah, I'm sure China has a lot of issues, but if you didn't live there for some time or even speak the language for that matter, just shut the fuck the up.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed Bit defensive there, eh? China is an autocracy and Xi is acting in the predictably self-destructive ways a dictator does. The U.S. is heading down that same path, with Trump practically mimicking Xi. N = 2 doesn’t weaken an argument. And folks who lived through the Nazis saying they see similar veins today doesn’t undermine their credibility. (The hilarity of it is if you take your comment and replace China and America with partisan or pro-American coding, you could pop it out of Hegseth’s office and it would be right at home. Your comment almost seals the point that Xi is all the problems of MAGA, except polling China instead.)
  - subw00f 8mo ago
    Yes, I'm aware how ignorant I may sound, but it's so goddamn frustrating to read this kind of bullshit everytime I come to an American platform. Ok, China is an autocracy, right? Could you explain to me how China conduct elections? Can you explain to me how they approve laws? Do they have a constitution? A justice system? Try answering these questions without much looking up and even if you do, please note the sources. No need to answer me really. Just ask yourself whether you know this or not and how qualified are you to actually label a HUGE state like China with one single heavily charged word.

This is the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades. Look at where China is today.

by wtodr 8mo ago

This is the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades. Look at where China is today.

> the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades Nope. It isn’t. Xi has ruled China like a dictator that breaks the tradition of intraparty competition the CCP has had since Mao. When Xi ended his Wolf Warrior nonsense it seemed to signal a reset. Now we have this nonsense. > Look at where China is today Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. Both are growing their economies, militaries and territorial ambitions. Both have serious issues, including the gerontocratic oligarchic consolidation of power at the expense of national interests.

SilverElfin 8mo ago
Not that I disagree, but I’m curious how you define national interests.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > curious how you define national interests My metric would be what the country’s population today and weighted populations of the future, if they could weigh in, would choose. It’s possible to frame ex post facto and impossible to pin down in the present. And it’s inherently subjective and culturally relative. But it’s useful to reason with, including for finding patterns in history. One pattern is the cost of corruption. If a leader is making billions off their power, they’re putting person about polity. That’s currently true in America [1] and China [2][3]. The difference is America has a chance to fix that in ‘28. China used to rotate leaders. But Xi fucked that up. (Note the language similarity between the above comment and how MAGA defends itself. “Trite bullshit.” Beijing has a hidden MACA problem, it’s just had a tougher time dealing with it because Xi reveres Mao.) [1] https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/spy-sheikh-secret-stake-trump-crypto-tahnoon-ea4d97e8?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqf5Jz1IFKIvUKWJz3j6LC0u4uyAvT7IM4I7Ddh_Qj0cFSKMHJSNo4fC&gaa_ts=69826954&gaa_sig=u7ikE2qD_u6xufmqE5nl7bZIjQGBE88QP8mnoacPuYZt9R2tbkh4kLAsg-tieoSWxemr8gF1ZJ-WbT-i9gCuVA%3D%3D https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/spy-sheikh-secret-stake-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chinas-president-xi-jinping-investments.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chinas-preside... [3] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/mar/20/us-intel-says-chinas-xi-jinping-holds-1-billion-hidden-wealth-family/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/mar/20/us-intel-sa...
  - SilverElfin 8mo ago
    Can’t weighted population of the future change based on what is chosen? For example by immigration and deportations? Also is MACA actually MCGA? Or something else? Aren’t there similar trends also in Europe and India?
blibble 8mo ago
> Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. just don't look at the first derivative vs china
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  The argument is the reflexive defensiveness works-and is raised—in both cases. Premature declarations of victory have never been a historic sign of strength.

tartoran 8mo ago

Keep in mind that China is not where it is today because of Xi. He could take it further for sure but so can he press the wrong buttons. It remains to be seen how China fares in the next few decades.

fakedang 8mo ago
Yep, China was on a massive and insane growth trajectory prior to Xi. Xi's policies and constant banging of war drums at Taiwan's door has cost China massively in terms of foreign investment and even knowledge transfer opportunities (by the ever-gullible West).
- aurareturn 8mo ago
  Western powers were never going to let China rise peacefully. As soon as China started designing phones instead of just manufacturing them, the west become much more "China bad". Had nothing to do with Xi.
RobotToaster 8mo ago
He's doing a better job than Zhao Ziyang, that's for sure.
- tartoran 8mo ago
  I'm not convinced that it could be attributable to Xi. China has been on this trajectory before he became the leader.
chii 8mo ago
> It remains to be seen how China fares in the next few decades. it is easy to continue on momentum alone.
- rbanffy 8mo ago
  They have the numbers on their side - IIRC they have more STEM grads than the US has workforce, and they graduate a lot more every year. Apple alone spends about a Marshal Plan per year in high-tech manufacturing, for what the know-how remains in China to manufacture other high-tech products. I think Tim Cook mentioned that no company outside China could make their MacBook shells up to the specs they need. The product is "designed in Cupertino", but the machine that builds it is designed, made, and operated in China. Multiply that by the number of companies who spend heavily in China for manufacturing, indirectly causing their advanced manufacturing industry to grow beyond anyone else's and it seems inevitable.

baxtr 8mo ago

The question is rather: Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier?

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier? Or without Mao being a trash fire of a leader. (Flip side: where would they be without Deng or Zemin, or others in the CCP who put nation above personal interest? The folks Xi is killing because they threaten his personal interests.)
- baxtr 8mo ago
  Maybe the combination of capitalism + democracy is so successful because it aligns the incentives of leaders and the masses best (to the extent possible).
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    My takeaway from China is democracy is less important than political competition. Between Mao and Xi, the CCP had the latter without the former. Today, America has the former and is struggling to keep the latter.
    - baxtr 8mo ago
      Yes agreed. But competition for what? I'd say for the good of the majority of the people. In other systems only those on top profit (maybe 10-20% max) even if they claim otherwise. Thus democracy, through competition, aligns the leader's incentive with their people best.
      - justinclift 8mo ago
        > In other systems only those on top profit Are you saying the US isn't doing that presently?

subw00f 8mo ago

It's amazing. The American president is quite literally creating a parallel military force to jail and kill people on the streets, they're arresting opposing journalists, politicians, pressuring tv channels and news organizations to fire people, invading countries without congressional approval, threatening allies with annexation for no fucking reason, dismantling any social programs left, and all of that led by a proven pedophile billionaire that was the customer and friend of a huge human trafficker, as were most of his billionaire friends who he favors with absolutely no shame. And this is just the latest news coming from over there. I won't mention the fact that there are people alive today who couldn't drink from the same fountain as other people because their skin is dark. It was never fucking great. So if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed down your throat by half a dozen mega companies that are in bed with your regime. So yeah, I'm sure China has a lot of issues, but if you didn't live there for some time or even speak the language for that matter, just shut the fuck the up.

JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
> if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed Bit defensive there, eh? China is an autocracy and Xi is acting in the predictably self-destructive ways a dictator does. The U.S. is heading down that same path, with Trump practically mimicking Xi. N = 2 doesn’t weaken an argument. And folks who lived through the Nazis saying they see similar veins today doesn’t undermine their credibility. (The hilarity of it is if you take your comment and replace China and America with partisan or pro-American coding, you could pop it out of Hegseth’s office and it would be right at home. Your comment almost seals the point that Xi is all the problems of MAGA, except polling China instead.)
- subw00f 8mo ago
  Yes, I'm aware how ignorant I may sound, but it's so goddamn frustrating to read this kind of bullshit everytime I come to an American platform. Ok, China is an autocracy, right? Could you explain to me how China conduct elections? Can you explain to me how they approve laws? Do they have a constitution? A justice system? Try answering these questions without much looking up and even if you do, please note the sources. No need to answer me really. Just ask yourself whether you know this or not and how qualified are you to actually label a HUGE state like China with one single heavily charged word.