6 ms·

They could attempt it, but the Second Amendment is quite clear that a constitutional amendment would be necessary to ban firearms and ammunition.

Retric 8mo ago
Forearms yes, percussion caps no. A large fraction of the harm from firearms comes from their ability to fire rapidly which didn’t exist when the constitution was written. As such it was making a very different balance of risk between the general public and individuals.
- ndriscoll 8mo ago
  The Girardoni repeating air rifle predates the ratification of the constitution by ~11 years and was taken on the Lewis and Clark expedition ~13 years later. Really the whole discussion around 2A is usually nonsense because it ignores the context that the entire Bill of Rights had a completely different meaning prior to the 14th amendment leading to incorporation over the last century (and other expansions of federal power via commerce clause); that is, the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the states. Very obviously individuals were expected to be part of the militia, which was the military at the time (c.f. the Militia Acts 2 years after ratification requiring individual gun ownership and very clearly laying out that all able-bodied white male citizens aged 18-45 were part of the militia), but also states could regulate weapons if they wanted.
  - Retric 8mo ago
    > Girardoni repeating air rifle Not a firearm. I didn’t say we could ban compressed air powered guns, I specifically said percussion caps. The Girardoni was way less dangerous than a modern handgun.
    - ndriscoll 8mo ago
      Sure, but compressed air guns are deadly (you can find videos of people using them on deer on youtube, or if you want something less graphic, you can find ballistic gel test videos), and a repeating rifle did exist at the time and was used a couple years later by an official American expedition commissioned by Jefferson. So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. The wider context also makes it clear that 2A was supposed to give individuals the right to own whatever weapons the military uses because at the time, there was no standing military. Individuals were summoned and expected to bring their own weapons, hence the law requiring them to own them. In the 230 intervening years, we've vastly increased the scope of the federal government and developed a formal military, so one might argue we ought to amend the constitution to change exactly what's allowed under 2A (e.g. it should be straightforward to have a nuclear weapons ban added with unanimous agreement), but as it stands, 2A (+14A) clearly gives individuals the right to own the arms necessary to run a functioning ("well-regulated") militia, which in 2026 means at least semi-automatic firearms.
      - Retric 8mo ago
        > So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. Thrown stones are a fast firing deadly weapon. They, compressed air guns, and ball musket etc aren’t used by modern military forces in combat because they are less dangerous. A rule that allows compressed air weapons yet bans percussion caps is quite reasonable and could pass constitutional scrutiny.
        ndriscoll 8mo ago
        It might be quite reasonable, but it would also quite clearly require an amendment to do in the US, which is what you originally replied to.
        Retric 8mo ago
        Grenades a clear requirement for a modern infantry are also banned, thus eliminating any argument that a modern standards of military efficiency apply. Banding heavy machine guns yet another invention after the constitution was written didn’t, so there’s clear present this wouldn’t either.
    - AngryData 8mo ago
      The Girardoni is certainly and unusual example but is deadly. However more importantly it is far from the first repeating firearm. There is the Kalthoff and Cookson repeating rifles as the most prominent examples. And both Jefferson and Washington personally got offered to purchase repeating firearms per their own journals, im im sure they weren't the only founders to receive such offers for both personal and military usage.
      - Retric 8mo ago
        Again way less dangerous than a modern firearm. “Repeating” here ignores the actual rate of fire of a Kalthoff or the even worse Cookson design. Especially when you consider how slow reloading is vs modern firearms. How many lives would have been saved at the Las Vegas massacre if Paddock has been limited to these designs? I’d say 30 is a safe bet but that’s probably a low estimate.
- 9x39 8mo ago
  The balance of power being considered then was between the state and the people. Fear over a standing army was real.
  - Retric 8mo ago
    Crime exited when the constitution was written, suggesting the framers were only concerned with interactions at the state level is to insult their intelligence. Not to mention specific text like people’s rights to a jury trial etc.
    - 9x39 8mo ago
      Principally concerned between the state and the people, not only. The context was the nature of England at the time. It was viewed as an oppressive force. The right to a jury trial is another example of favoring the individual instead of say, the Star Chamber: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber I don’t think we even disagree per se, but it’s hard to argue the constitution wasn’t written primarily with the thought of what England and how it exercised authority in mind. Individual roadmen and ruffians, let’s say, existed but weren’t existential threats to shape the tone of the new nation’s foundation, were they?
      - Retric 8mo ago
        Lawlessness is a complete breakdown of state power and just as threatening to a new country as foreign powers. The degree of importance they place on individual factors here is obviously debatable, but they just had two governments fail. England and the articles of confederation didn’t work so there was a larger emphasis on practicality over idealism.
- kube-system 8mo ago
  1. The second amendment wasn't written because the authors thought guns were inert. It was written precisely because they could impart deadly force. 2. As someone else pointed out, early repeating rifles did exist then. 3. If the meaning of the constitution is only to be evaluated against the technology available at the time -- what does that say about the validity of the 1st or 4th amendments with modern technology?
  - Retric 8mo ago
    Air guns existed sure. There’s a reason those aren’t used by the military today, they just aren’t that dangerous.
    - kube-system 8mo ago
      They're deadly and rapid fire. But again, in historical context, the point of the 2A was to permit people to own the most deadly weapons of war that existed at that time.
      - Retric 8mo ago
        > They’re deadly and rapid fire So are a pile of stones, it’s the degree of risk to the public that matters not some arbitrary classification. Ignoring differences is degree here isn’t enough to win the argument.
        kube-system 8mo ago
        That is an argument that people make today. Where was that part of the decision making process in 1789?
        Retric 8mo ago
        Firearms (ops Arms) was used rather than weapons suggesting some level of consideration here. They had cannons and warships back then. That bit about a well regulated militia suggests limits on what exactly was permissible. But obviously we don’t have direct knowledge of every conversation.
hoarseAAPL 8mo ago
SCOTUS has ruled before that 2A does not afford freedom to own any kind of weapon. There are limits on explosives for example. They tend to lean on whether it is reasonable that the Founders might have had access to such a weapon with their technology. Machine gun is just a rifle with automatic rechamber. Not an unreasonable upgrade for 1700s technology. Maybe, I dunno; political people don't have to actually care about the details. There are limits. And if cases like this made it there they might rule that no Founder was smelting the materials. That they would have had to collaborate, in some "market dictates options" ruling to limit hermits going in a rampage. Also everyone a weapons assembly line in their home is anti-corporate capitalism. "George Washington understood the value of civic life and sound economics! He would not have tolerated such insular selfishness! He did not make his own weapons! He engaged in trade!" Not saying it's realistic but politics is not never controlled by people living in reality. Making shit up seems as reasonable as anything.
- 9x39 8mo ago
  >SCOTUS has ruled before that 2A does not afford freedom to own any kind of weapon. There are limits on explosives for example. This is largely machine guns and explosives. Pistols, rifles, etc are ordinary weapons in common use* *NYC authorities may not agree
  - hoarseAAPL 8mo ago
    https://ammo.com/research/list-of-banned-guns-and-ammo-by-state https://ammo.com/research/list-of-banned-guns-and-ammo-by-st... Sawed off shotguns seems arbitrary and that was ultimately my (pre-coffee) point; government is fine with coming up with an arbitrary restriction when they want. They could outlaw the means of production. Gen pop is not allowed to own that.
    - int_19h 8mo ago
      There is, in fact, a good question wrt how much of NFA is actually constitutional. A funny thing about this is that ATF has dropped cases on several occasions where the defendant tried this angle, presumably because they didn't want something contrary to their current regulations as written to be overturned in court, and because they had plenty of other charges to throw at those guys anyway.
bitwize 8mo ago
[flagged]
- zelda420 8mo ago
  What a dystopia. If anything the situation in Minnesota should teach liberal Americans that they all need to arm themselves massively.
  - BobaFloutist 8mo ago
    Yes, and remind me what happened to the liberal American that armed himself in Minnesota?
    - GenerWork 8mo ago
      [flagged]
      - amanaplanacanal 8mo ago
        Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
      - mikem170 8mo ago
        > drawing on a federal officer It is my understanding [0] that multiple videos show that Petti did not draw his gun. Do you know of evidence to the contrary? [0] https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/did-pretti-draw-weapon-before-being-shot-93c046 https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/did-pretti-draw-wea...
      - nickthegreek 8mo ago
        > He attempted to be a hero by drawing on a federal officer. Absolutely vile smear against a hard working VA nurse and stand up citizen. There were zero attempts made by Alex Pretti to draw a weapon. He was being a hero by helping 2 women move away from the masked officers forcefully pushing them.

Retric 8mo ago

Forearms yes, percussion caps no. A large fraction of the harm from firearms comes from their ability to fire rapidly which didn’t exist when the constitution was written. As such it was making a very different balance of risk between the general public and individuals.

ndriscoll 8mo ago
The Girardoni repeating air rifle predates the ratification of the constitution by ~11 years and was taken on the Lewis and Clark expedition ~13 years later. Really the whole discussion around 2A is usually nonsense because it ignores the context that the entire Bill of Rights had a completely different meaning prior to the 14th amendment leading to incorporation over the last century (and other expansions of federal power via commerce clause); that is, the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the states. Very obviously individuals were expected to be part of the militia, which was the military at the time (c.f. the Militia Acts 2 years after ratification requiring individual gun ownership and very clearly laying out that all able-bodied white male citizens aged 18-45 were part of the militia), but also states could regulate weapons if they wanted.
- Retric 8mo ago
  > Girardoni repeating air rifle Not a firearm. I didn’t say we could ban compressed air powered guns, I specifically said percussion caps. The Girardoni was way less dangerous than a modern handgun.
  - ndriscoll 8mo ago
    Sure, but compressed air guns are deadly (you can find videos of people using them on deer on youtube, or if you want something less graphic, you can find ballistic gel test videos), and a repeating rifle did exist at the time and was used a couple years later by an official American expedition commissioned by Jefferson. So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. The wider context also makes it clear that 2A was supposed to give individuals the right to own whatever weapons the military uses because at the time, there was no standing military. Individuals were summoned and expected to bring their own weapons, hence the law requiring them to own them. In the 230 intervening years, we've vastly increased the scope of the federal government and developed a formal military, so one might argue we ought to amend the constitution to change exactly what's allowed under 2A (e.g. it should be straightforward to have a nuclear weapons ban added with unanimous agreement), but as it stands, 2A (+14A) clearly gives individuals the right to own the arms necessary to run a functioning ("well-regulated") militia, which in 2026 means at least semi-automatic firearms.
    - Retric 8mo ago
      > So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. Thrown stones are a fast firing deadly weapon. They, compressed air guns, and ball musket etc aren’t used by modern military forces in combat because they are less dangerous. A rule that allows compressed air weapons yet bans percussion caps is quite reasonable and could pass constitutional scrutiny.
      - ndriscoll 8mo ago
        It might be quite reasonable, but it would also quite clearly require an amendment to do in the US, which is what you originally replied to.
        Retric 8mo ago
        Grenades a clear requirement for a modern infantry are also banned, thus eliminating any argument that a modern standards of military efficiency apply. Banding heavy machine guns yet another invention after the constitution was written didn’t, so there’s clear present this wouldn’t either.
  - AngryData 8mo ago
    The Girardoni is certainly and unusual example but is deadly. However more importantly it is far from the first repeating firearm. There is the Kalthoff and Cookson repeating rifles as the most prominent examples. And both Jefferson and Washington personally got offered to purchase repeating firearms per their own journals, im im sure they weren't the only founders to receive such offers for both personal and military usage.
    - Retric 8mo ago
      Again way less dangerous than a modern firearm. “Repeating” here ignores the actual rate of fire of a Kalthoff or the even worse Cookson design. Especially when you consider how slow reloading is vs modern firearms. How many lives would have been saved at the Las Vegas massacre if Paddock has been limited to these designs? I’d say 30 is a safe bet but that’s probably a low estimate.
9x39 8mo ago
The balance of power being considered then was between the state and the people. Fear over a standing army was real.
- Retric 8mo ago
  Crime exited when the constitution was written, suggesting the framers were only concerned with interactions at the state level is to insult their intelligence. Not to mention specific text like people’s rights to a jury trial etc.
  - 9x39 8mo ago
    Principally concerned between the state and the people, not only. The context was the nature of England at the time. It was viewed as an oppressive force. The right to a jury trial is another example of favoring the individual instead of say, the Star Chamber: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber I don’t think we even disagree per se, but it’s hard to argue the constitution wasn’t written primarily with the thought of what England and how it exercised authority in mind. Individual roadmen and ruffians, let’s say, existed but weren’t existential threats to shape the tone of the new nation’s foundation, were they?
    - Retric 8mo ago
      Lawlessness is a complete breakdown of state power and just as threatening to a new country as foreign powers. The degree of importance they place on individual factors here is obviously debatable, but they just had two governments fail. England and the articles of confederation didn’t work so there was a larger emphasis on practicality over idealism.
kube-system 8mo ago
1. The second amendment wasn't written because the authors thought guns were inert. It was written precisely because they could impart deadly force. 2. As someone else pointed out, early repeating rifles did exist then. 3. If the meaning of the constitution is only to be evaluated against the technology available at the time -- what does that say about the validity of the 1st or 4th amendments with modern technology?
- Retric 8mo ago
  Air guns existed sure. There’s a reason those aren’t used by the military today, they just aren’t that dangerous.
  - kube-system 8mo ago
    They're deadly and rapid fire. But again, in historical context, the point of the 2A was to permit people to own the most deadly weapons of war that existed at that time.
    - Retric 8mo ago
      > They’re deadly and rapid fire So are a pile of stones, it’s the degree of risk to the public that matters not some arbitrary classification. Ignoring differences is degree here isn’t enough to win the argument.
      - kube-system 8mo ago
        That is an argument that people make today. Where was that part of the decision making process in 1789?
        Retric 8mo ago
        Firearms (ops Arms) was used rather than weapons suggesting some level of consideration here. They had cannons and warships back then. That bit about a well regulated militia suggests limits on what exactly was permissible. But obviously we don’t have direct knowledge of every conversation.

hoarseAAPL 8mo ago

SCOTUS has ruled before that 2A does not afford freedom to own any kind of weapon. There are limits on explosives for example. They tend to lean on whether it is reasonable that the Founders might have had access to such a weapon with their technology. Machine gun is just a rifle with automatic rechamber. Not an unreasonable upgrade for 1700s technology. Maybe, I dunno; political people don't have to actually care about the details. There are limits. And if cases like this made it there they might rule that no Founder was smelting the materials. That they would have had to collaborate, in some "market dictates options" ruling to limit hermits going in a rampage. Also everyone a weapons assembly line in their home is anti-corporate capitalism. "George Washington understood the value of civic life and sound economics! He would not have tolerated such insular selfishness! He did not make his own weapons! He engaged in trade!" Not saying it's realistic but politics is not never controlled by people living in reality. Making shit up seems as reasonable as anything.

9x39 8mo ago
>SCOTUS has ruled before that 2A does not afford freedom to own any kind of weapon. There are limits on explosives for example. This is largely machine guns and explosives. Pistols, rifles, etc are ordinary weapons in common use* *NYC authorities may not agree
- hoarseAAPL 8mo ago
  https://ammo.com/research/list-of-banned-guns-and-ammo-by-state https://ammo.com/research/list-of-banned-guns-and-ammo-by-st... Sawed off shotguns seems arbitrary and that was ultimately my (pre-coffee) point; government is fine with coming up with an arbitrary restriction when they want. They could outlaw the means of production. Gen pop is not allowed to own that.
  - int_19h 8mo ago
    There is, in fact, a good question wrt how much of NFA is actually constitutional. A funny thing about this is that ATF has dropped cases on several occasions where the defendant tried this angle, presumably because they didn't want something contrary to their current regulations as written to be overturned in court, and because they had plenty of other charges to throw at those guys anyway.

bitwize 8mo ago

[flagged]

zelda420 8mo ago
What a dystopia. If anything the situation in Minnesota should teach liberal Americans that they all need to arm themselves massively.
- BobaFloutist 8mo ago
  Yes, and remind me what happened to the liberal American that armed himself in Minnesota?
  - GenerWork 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - amanaplanacanal 8mo ago
      Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
    - mikem170 8mo ago
      > drawing on a federal officer It is my understanding [0] that multiple videos show that Petti did not draw his gun. Do you know of evidence to the contrary? [0] https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/did-pretti-draw-weapon-before-being-shot-93c046 https://factually.co/fact-checks/justice/did-pretti-draw-wea...
    - nickthegreek 8mo ago
      > He attempted to be a hero by drawing on a federal officer. Absolutely vile smear against a hard working VA nurse and stand up citizen. There were zero attempts made by Alex Pretti to draw a weapon. He was being a hero by helping 2 women move away from the masked officers forcefully pushing them.