15 ms·

Banning lead in gas worked. The proof is in our hair

383 points by geox 9mo ago

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2525498123 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2525498123

wileydragonfly 9mo ago
Explains a great deal, honestly.
- yieldcrv 9mo ago
  like what? are there more intelligent people? I've anecdotally heard this is a cause for crime reduction as people are less impulsive than they were, in conflict resolution? overall? don't really know what takeaway I'm supposed to know about
  - nyc_data_geek 9mo ago
    Are you really calling into question the well documented developmental effects of lead in human cognition and behavior
    - jackvalentine 9mo ago
      No, he’s asking for someone to expand on their five word sentence that is so generic it can be interpreted to support almost any thesis you want.
    - NedF 9mo ago
      [dead]
    - yieldcrv 9mo ago
      I don’t know anything about the effect of lead on human cognition and behavior, I’m asking you to tell me about it If that’s even what their comment was about How does that effect work? your assumption wasn’t a “lead free” response, am I doing it right?
      - throwway120385 9mo ago
        Lead exposure gives you brain damage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning. If you damage your frontal lobes, you generally become more impulsive and less measured in your response to things. Ergo, chronic lead poisoning causes populations to become more aggressive and more likely to engage in crime.
defrost 9mo ago
The punchline being: The findings, which appear in PNAS, underscore the vital role of environmental regulations in protecting public health. The study notes lead rules are now being weakened by the Trump administration in a wide-ranging move to ease environmental protections. “We should not forget the lessons of history. And the lesson is those regulations have been very important,”
russdill 9mo ago
Hopefully next we can help fix mercury in fish, the number one contributor right now is burning coal. Seems like it would be a easy decision.
- vpShane 9mo ago
  We live in opposite-world where the way it is, is the exact opposite of how it should be
- epistasis 9mo ago
  Coal is mostly sticking around in the US because of federal overreach to keep unprofitable and ancient coal generators going long after anybody wants to pay for the high maintenance. Last week, a Colorado utility was "respectfully" asking to be able to close a plant: > TTri-State Generation and partner Platte River Power Authority had a “respectful” but emphatic response late Thursday to the Trump administration ordering them to keep Craig’s Unit 1 coal-fired plant open past the New Year: > They don’t need it, they don’t want it, and their inflation-strapped consumers can’t afford the higher bills. Plus, the federal order is unconstitutional. https://coloradosun.com/2026/01/30/craig-tri-state-petition-coal-closure/ https://coloradosun.com/2026/01/30/craig-tri-state-petition-... TVA has also been begging to close a money losing coal plant for a while now, writing letters to FERC about it, but I can't find the link now. New coal is far too expensive to build anymore too. Handling big amounts of solid material is expensive, and big old unresponsive baseload is undesirable for achieving economic efficiency. Even China, which is still building new coal plants, is lessening their coal usage. Personally I think they'll keep some around to continue economic influence on Australia, which is one their primary countries for experimenting with methods to increase their soft power. There is no technical or economic reason to want coal power today.
  - prodigycorp 9mo ago
    Thank you for such a thoughtful comment. There's politics that gets flagged on this site, and there's politics that makes me think about things with more clarity. Yours is obviously the latter.
vintermann 9mo ago
> The Utah part of this is so interesting because of the way people keep track of their family history. Definitively interesting that they could get so many old hair samples with good provenance.
- munificent 9mo ago
  It's interesting that the paper doesn't mention this, but the answer here is Latter Day Saints. They have a very strong culture of genealogy and preserving family history. The study authors are all in Salt Lake City, which is the Mormon capital of the world.
  - vintermann 9mo ago
    Yes, I guess they assumed it went without saying. I have a lot of respect for LDS genealogy efforts. It clearly goes beyond the baptizing the dead thing. Many of them take it very seriously, and they don't shy away from things that challenge the Mormon narratives (mainly DNA evidence not giving support for their peculiar American settlement theories).
jmward01 9mo ago
I remember going to LA in the late 80's and my eyes watering (I also remember the pants-less man on the side of the strode but that is a different story). Environmental regulations are a win. Unfortunately there is a large segment of the population that doesn't believe something until it happens to them directly. That makes it a challenge to maintain environmental, or any regulations for that matter, over generations. It isn't practical, but it would be interesting to create 'pollution cities' where the regulations were loose so long as the entire company drew its workforce (including management) from the local population (like within a mile) and a significant portion of their drinking water and foods must also be sourced locally. Go ahead, pollute your own drinking water. I bet cities like this would be cleaner than ones with stricter regulations.
- gedy 9mo ago
  > Environmental regulations are a win. Unfortunately there is a large segment of the population that doesn't believe something ... You aren't wrong, but let's be honest that a lot of that is manufacturing just moved to China and moved the pollution. Specific to lead in gas, yes it's great we no longer do this.
  - ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
    Manufacturing output hit an all time high in the US in 2024. There's less manufacturing jobs and it's less of the total economy as other sectors grew but it would presumably need to be genuinely cleaner in order to offset that growth if industrial pollution just remained flat. The switch from coal to gas would be a major cleanup for any process that uses electricity, for example.
    - gedy 9mo ago
      Related to the OP comment about LA, are you suggesting that moving manufacturing to China had little impact on manufacturing and pollution in the US?
- yellottyellott 9mo ago
  In Louisana there’s a stretch around all the refineries nicknamed Cancer Alley. The locals work the plants. Everyone gets sick. And they vote for expansion because it brings in more jobs. You need the regulations.
t1234s 9mo ago
You used to be able to buy leaded 110 gas as Sunoco in the early 2000's. It would make your exhaust tips turn white and had a sort of candy like smell when combusted.
- grubbs 9mo ago
  I remember people with various "tunes" at the racetrack would run this stuff. It definitely smelled like candy!
- Faaak 9mo ago
  AFAIK that's why leaded paint is bad for children: it tastes sweet so they continue licking it/eating the chips of paint that fall off the wall
  - latexr 9mo ago
    You’re conjuring an image of children licking walls, but just the dust from the flaking paint chips is harmful. https://www.cdc.gov/lead-prevention/prevention/paint.html https://www.cdc.gov/lead-prevention/prevention/paint.html
  - t1234s 9mo ago
    Water from lead pipes must have tasted amazing
    - titzer 9mo ago
      Ancient Romans used lead as a sweetener. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-deadly-sweetener-89984487/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-...
  - ljlolel 9mo ago
    It’s why they added it to wine
- myself248 9mo ago
  Wait 'til you learn about avgas!
mistrial9 9mo ago
no one has mentioned "The Secret History of Lead" published by The Nation in March 2000. The long and detailed article exposed the deliberate and long-standing cover-up of leaded gasoline's dangers by major corporations. Villians include General Motors, Du Pont, and Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon).
cfiggers 9mo ago
In my opinion it is obvious and should be uncontroversial that some environmental regulations work and are great and should if anything be reinforced, while other environmental regulations do more harm than good and need to be reigned in or eliminated. Turning "environmental regulation" into a unified bloc that must be either supported or opposed in totality is a manipulative political maneuver and it should be forcefully rejected. Regulations are not people, and they don't have rights. It is fair and reasonable to demand that environmental regulation justify its existence with hard, scientifically verifiable data or else get chopped. Clearly, banning leaded gasoline has that kind of justification, and therefore I'm strongly in favor of maintaining that ban and extending it wherever it isn't in place yet. The same reasonable standard should be applied to other regulations across the board.
- soperj 9mo ago
  > while other environmental regulations do more harm than good and need to be reigned in or eliminated. Prove it.
  - cfiggers 9mo ago
    I have proven it to my own satisfaction. It's a pretty trivial proof. I'm sure you could derive your own, if you tried. How's this: if, at some point, it seems to me that your agreement would benefit me or advance something I care about, I promise I'll consider trying to convince you.
    - soperj 9mo ago
      "trust me bro"
- AdamN 9mo ago
  Basically everybody agrees with what you're saying which is what makes this an insidious comment. In general the pressure against regulation comes from narrow winners (oil industry for instance) whereas the pressure for regulations generally comes from people focused on the greater good (even if they are misled by other narrow winners, for instance compliance firms).
ck2 9mo ago
unless you live next to an airport or even remotely close to it then lead is being sprayed all over you, your car and home, daily for THREE DECADES NOW no rush, not like it's poison or does permanent damage to your health/IQ https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-was-phased-out-25-years-ago-why-are-n1264970 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-wa...
- ryandrake 9mo ago
  Acknowledging that there is no safe amount of lead exposure, the amount of lead that "is being sprayed all over you" from a tiny handful of piston airplanes is minuscule compared to what we were all exposed to prior to the mid 70s. Like many orders of magnitude. I'd be concerned if I worked at the airport pumping gas or something.
- moffkalast 9mo ago
  Yeah it's absurd how aviation is somehow exempt from these rules, especially since piston engine aircraft carry virtually no vital role in anything except people flying them for fun. There have been viable alternatives for a long long time now. I guess people who have money for personal airplanes also have the money to lobby when it matters for their interests. Pricks, I hope they die of dementia.
  - mfkp 9mo ago
    Wow, very angry and uninformed comment. No airplane owners are lobbying for lead. As a pilot with a personal airplane that runs on avgas, we all want lead to go away too. But it's a problem with FAA regulations, and an infrastructure problem where every airport nationwide needs to have separate fuel tanks/trucks with leaded fuel and the newer lead-free alternatives simultaneously, which is a massive expense. Plus, there is no consensus on which lead-free alternative is safest for old engines, so we're still waiting on data. California has a few airports that are stocking the lead-free alternatives, but that's about it. But yes, blame the small aircraft owners if it makes you feel better. > "piston engine aircraft carry virtually no vital role in anything except people flying them for fun" I guess we just shouldn't train new pilots then.
lenerdenator 9mo ago
I really want to see elimination of lead (projectiles, lead styphnate primers, etc.) in firearms next. When I go to the range, every once in a while, I'll see one of the older marksmen who's there with his squirrel hunting rifle, chambered in .22 LR. I've noticed that he seems to have a tremor in his hands when he's loading his magazines. Essential tremor is linked to lead exposure [0] Most .22 LR projectiles are either just lead or have a copper "wash" over the lead, not a proper jacket like you see on other rounds. I wonder, if you shoot those loads for long enough, and breathe in enough gunsmoke, do you get that problem? As for the proof being in our hair... well, not mine. Chrome dome over here XD [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1241711/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1241711/
- bikelang 9mo ago
  I completely agree. I do everything I can to avoid leaded ammunition. I do not want lead touching the meat I harvest. It can be really tricky to find lead-free ammo of certain sizes. I mostly use waterfowl ammo for upland bird and rabbit - and it works fine. But even ordering ammo online it is quite hard to get .270 solid copper. And in a store? Forget about it
- 1970-01-01 9mo ago
  Why would lead be in the gunsmoke? Everything leaded should be coming out the business end of the firearm, and it should be coming out with some gusto.
  - jabl 9mo ago
    Because the heat and pressure from the propellant and rifling vaporizes or rubs off some of that lead. A very small percentage, granted, but still. Particularly for unjacketed bullets like 22LR. Even jacketed bullets tend to not be jacketed at the base.
  - vel0city 9mo ago
    The material that burns in primers is often lead styphnate. This burns and sends lead particles throughout the air. With rounds that aren't well jacketed like those 22s that are just bare lead, you also get some of the round scraping in the barrels that comes off as dust. There's tons of lead in the air at shooting ranges.
gambiting 9mo ago
Fun fact - leaded petrol isn't actually banned in the UK, you can legally buy it and use it. The legislation at the time of bans just made it so that leaded petrol could only be a small % of overall petrol sales by any given fuel station, arguing that it allowed time for owners of unleaded-incompatible cars to purchase it. And....it worked pretty much exactly as designed - initially only the largest stations carried it because they could justify the storage costs, and eventually it disappeared from almost everywhere. Just before covid there were still 3 small garages selling leaded petrol by the drum, but afaik they all stopped doing so. And regardless - you can stil buy actual real Tetraethyl Lead fuel additive which turns your petrol into actual real 4-star leaded petrol, just like in the old days: https://www.demon-tweeks.com/tetraboost-e-guard-15-fuel-additive-with-ethanol-protection-lead-additive-tbotet15945/ https://www.demon-tweeks.com/tetraboost-e-guard-15-fuel-addi...
- jabl 9mo ago
  I recall there's one factory on the planet still producing TEL, so once they decide it's no longer profitable it's over. Aviation gasoline is probably the one market that still keeps it afloat, when/if piston aviation switches over the remaining market is small and insignificant.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - tjohns 9mo ago
    At least in the US, the current proposed plan is to phase out leaded avgas by 2030: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/draft_unleaded_avgas_transition_plan https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/draft_unleaded_avgas...
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      That's never gonna happen by 2030. I wish.
- tim333 9mo ago
builderhq_io 9mo ago
[flagged]
magaisnuts 9mo ago
[flagged]
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
krunck 9mo ago
Also: Preserved hair reveals just how bad lead exposure was in the 20th century (livescience.com) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46872282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46872282
lysace 9mo ago
During the past year I have discovered that almost all retailers here in Sweden have voluntarily replaced their usual Teflon/polytetrafluoroethylene/PTFE frying pan coatings with something called 'ceramic'. (This includes IKEA globally, I assume.) The thing is - it's simply not as good. The worst case is probably frying frozen gyoza. They will get stuck when they get gelatinous on that 'ceramic' surface. I ended up looking up some slightly offbrand stores to get the pan that I wanted.
- munificent 9mo ago
  Humans were able to successfully fry food for hundreds of years before Teflon was invented. I still like non-stick pans for eggs, but for almost everything else, I prefer stainless steel, cast iron, or enameled cast iron. You do have to pay a little more attention to technique (knowing what temperature to heat the pan to before you put food on, etc.), but the end result is just about as good as a non-stick pan with many advantages: * You don't have to be obsessive about never letting a metal utensil scratch the pan. (I hope you aren't using a metal spatula or fork with your non-stick!) * You can scrape the hell out of the pan while you cook and get all that delicious crispy fond into what you're making. If I'm doing a pan sauce, it's always in the Dutch oven so I can get that fond into the gravy. * They last a lot longer. Even if you are careful, a non-stick pan will lose its coating and need to be replaced after a handful of years. I got my cast iron skillet for $15 at an antique store. It's older than me and will outlive me. * You're not, you know, eating forever chemicals.
  - lysace 9mo ago
    I remember seeing a bunch of research showing that any teflon you ate was just pooped out, so to speak. This ceramic pan I bought from IKEA lasted like 3-5 months until I was unhappy with it. Historically, the teflon pans I have bought from there have lasted 12-18 months easily.
    - munificent 9mo ago
      For comparison: * I don't know how old my cast iron skillet is because I literally bought it from an antique store but I've had it for over a decade and it's in better shape than ever. * My $60 Lodge Dutch oven is over a decade old and has been used hundreds of times. * My stainless steel All-Clad skillet is relatively new at 5-6 years but is no worse than the day I got it.
j45 9mo ago
The concerning thing is how lead, arsenic are being found in things they are not reported in or labelled as being safe.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
  I wonder how big a factor this is in creating podcast bros/tech bros. Is there actually a pipeline from 'get guy to start working out' to becoming a dumb bro? https://www.consumerreports.org/lead/protein-powders-and-shakes-contain-high-levels-of-lead-a4206364640/ https://www.consumerreports.org/lead/protein-powders-and-sha...
  - j45 9mo ago
    Seems to be a regularish occurrence far beyond the podcast/tech crowd in many areas. Blind doubting of things can be as bad as blindly believing they're safe, if we don't know who's, or if anyone is keeping the safety honest. Capitalism can too often lean towards optimizing profit. Testing for lead, etc can be done independently pretty easily and consistently enough to get a statistically high enough correlation of what's going on. I get the stereotypes - but consuming anything in an unbalanced way will lead to being out of balance. Food, caffiene, alcohol, supplements.
WalterBright 9mo ago
I am so grateful that much of my childhood was in a town rather than a city.
chhxdjsj 9mo ago
I wish someone would do a large RCT of water fluoridation in pregnant women looking at long term cognitive outcomes if fetuses. It would be an easy study to do (just randomize each group to receive free deliveries of either fluoridated or not fluoridated water) and then look at their offspring’s scores on cognitive tests every few years. I think reputable scientists don’t touch this because they’re afraid of being labelled kooky.
- LorenPechtel 9mo ago
  Does the word Tuskegee mean anything to you? Because that's basically what you are asking for. Nor is there any need for such a study as we have a natural one: some areas have more fluorine in the water than others. We started putting fluorine in the water because we noticed that the places with higher natural levels had better teeth. There comes a point where it's too much and downsides appear, but, again, we already knew that. Note that this is a completely normal thing--there is nothing which is not toxic in sufficient quantity. Including *everything* that is necessary for human life. What would be strange is if there wasn't some maximum safe level. Some things the body easily eliminates and the range between minimum and maximum is quite wide. Things which are not so easily eliminated have narrower ranges. Thus we have the situation where overdose of water-soluble vitamins is basically unheard-of, but overdose of fat-soluble vitamins very definitely happens.
FlyingBears 9mo ago
Don’t worry, we can get our lead from spices and every food that includes them. Lead is cheaper to get than cinnamon and even cocoa, so it ends up being favored adulterant to increase weight at sale.
- paulryanrogers 9mo ago
  Considering what lead does to people, there should be jail time for everyone involved. Even store managers should do time if products on their shelves turn up positive.
halamadrid 9mo ago
If someone in the admin reads this, there is a chance this will be reversed and lead will be allowed in gas again :)
accidentallfact 9mo ago
That is expected. The problem is that people are not getting healthier, or more intelligent, quite the opposite. Obviously there is an absolutely massive problem that you're missing as you're congratulating yourself on "succeeding" with a massive effort with no clear result.
- SV_BubbleTime 9mo ago
  Good experiment… I guess turn the lead back on and we’ll see!
  - accidentallfact 9mo ago
    Well, at the very least you need to agree that its effect was smaller than the harm done by whatever the actual problem is.
cyanydeez 9mo ago
I would argue it worked, but not fast enough. I think the current American politics run by 50-80 year olds with significant lead poisoning.
fuzzfactor 9mo ago
It's definitely lead. But when you do look at the details it doesn't look like the results point to the measured lead coming directly from gasoline itself. Just as likely if not more so coming from the neighborhood lead smelter that operated over a period of decades where the phaseout probably overlapped from both mineral and gasoline sources, in step with the regulations. These are rare samples but I wonder if it would be possible to determine how much lead was on the outside of the hairs which could be expected to settle from the atmosphere, compared to within the biological matrix itself which could have been incorporated metabolically? And in a ubiquitous TEL-using environment, would that form of lead build up more so on the outside of the hairs or the inside? With or without a lead smelter in the neighborhood?
Denatonium 9mo ago
As if tetraethyl lead in gasoline wasn't bad enough, they also added ethylene dichloride and/or ethylene dibromide, which acted as a lead scavengers, preventing deposits of insoluble lead (II) oxide from forming and clogging up engines/exhaust equipment. Instead, water-soluble-at-high-temperatures lead (II) chloride and lead (II) chloride were blasted out the tailpipes of vehicles using tetraethyl lead. These are mildly soluble at ambient temperatures, allowing the lead to permeate even further than it otherwise would have.

383 points by geox 9mo ago

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2525498123 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2525498123

wileydragonfly 9mo ago

Explains a great deal, honestly.

yieldcrv 9mo ago
like what? are there more intelligent people? I've anecdotally heard this is a cause for crime reduction as people are less impulsive than they were, in conflict resolution? overall? don't really know what takeaway I'm supposed to know about
- nyc_data_geek 9mo ago
  Are you really calling into question the well documented developmental effects of lead in human cognition and behavior
  - jackvalentine 9mo ago
    No, he’s asking for someone to expand on their five word sentence that is so generic it can be interpreted to support almost any thesis you want.
  - NedF 9mo ago
    [dead]
  - yieldcrv 9mo ago
    I don’t know anything about the effect of lead on human cognition and behavior, I’m asking you to tell me about it If that’s even what their comment was about How does that effect work? your assumption wasn’t a “lead free” response, am I doing it right?
    - throwway120385 9mo ago
      Lead exposure gives you brain damage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning. If you damage your frontal lobes, you generally become more impulsive and less measured in your response to things. Ergo, chronic lead poisoning causes populations to become more aggressive and more likely to engage in crime.

defrost 9mo ago

The punchline being: The findings, which appear in PNAS, underscore the vital role of environmental regulations in protecting public health. The study notes lead rules are now being weakened by the Trump administration in a wide-ranging move to ease environmental protections. “We should not forget the lessons of history. And the lesson is those regulations have been very important,”

russdill 9mo ago

Hopefully next we can help fix mercury in fish, the number one contributor right now is burning coal. Seems like it would be a easy decision.

vpShane 9mo ago
We live in opposite-world where the way it is, is the exact opposite of how it should be
epistasis 9mo ago
Coal is mostly sticking around in the US because of federal overreach to keep unprofitable and ancient coal generators going long after anybody wants to pay for the high maintenance. Last week, a Colorado utility was "respectfully" asking to be able to close a plant: > TTri-State Generation and partner Platte River Power Authority had a “respectful” but emphatic response late Thursday to the Trump administration ordering them to keep Craig’s Unit 1 coal-fired plant open past the New Year: > They don’t need it, they don’t want it, and their inflation-strapped consumers can’t afford the higher bills. Plus, the federal order is unconstitutional. https://coloradosun.com/2026/01/30/craig-tri-state-petition-coal-closure/ https://coloradosun.com/2026/01/30/craig-tri-state-petition-... TVA has also been begging to close a money losing coal plant for a while now, writing letters to FERC about it, but I can't find the link now. New coal is far too expensive to build anymore too. Handling big amounts of solid material is expensive, and big old unresponsive baseload is undesirable for achieving economic efficiency. Even China, which is still building new coal plants, is lessening their coal usage. Personally I think they'll keep some around to continue economic influence on Australia, which is one their primary countries for experimenting with methods to increase their soft power. There is no technical or economic reason to want coal power today.
- prodigycorp 9mo ago
  Thank you for such a thoughtful comment. There's politics that gets flagged on this site, and there's politics that makes me think about things with more clarity. Yours is obviously the latter.

vintermann 9mo ago

> The Utah part of this is so interesting because of the way people keep track of their family history. Definitively interesting that they could get so many old hair samples with good provenance.

munificent 9mo ago
It's interesting that the paper doesn't mention this, but the answer here is Latter Day Saints. They have a very strong culture of genealogy and preserving family history. The study authors are all in Salt Lake City, which is the Mormon capital of the world.
- vintermann 9mo ago
  Yes, I guess they assumed it went without saying. I have a lot of respect for LDS genealogy efforts. It clearly goes beyond the baptizing the dead thing. Many of them take it very seriously, and they don't shy away from things that challenge the Mormon narratives (mainly DNA evidence not giving support for their peculiar American settlement theories).

jmward01 9mo ago

I remember going to LA in the late 80's and my eyes watering (I also remember the pants-less man on the side of the strode but that is a different story). Environmental regulations are a win. Unfortunately there is a large segment of the population that doesn't believe something until it happens to them directly. That makes it a challenge to maintain environmental, or any regulations for that matter, over generations. It isn't practical, but it would be interesting to create 'pollution cities' where the regulations were loose so long as the entire company drew its workforce (including management) from the local population (like within a mile) and a significant portion of their drinking water and foods must also be sourced locally. Go ahead, pollute your own drinking water. I bet cities like this would be cleaner than ones with stricter regulations.

gedy 9mo ago
> Environmental regulations are a win. Unfortunately there is a large segment of the population that doesn't believe something ... You aren't wrong, but let's be honest that a lot of that is manufacturing just moved to China and moved the pollution. Specific to lead in gas, yes it's great we no longer do this.
- ZeroGravitas 9mo ago
  Manufacturing output hit an all time high in the US in 2024. There's less manufacturing jobs and it's less of the total economy as other sectors grew but it would presumably need to be genuinely cleaner in order to offset that growth if industrial pollution just remained flat. The switch from coal to gas would be a major cleanup for any process that uses electricity, for example.
  - gedy 9mo ago
    Related to the OP comment about LA, are you suggesting that moving manufacturing to China had little impact on manufacturing and pollution in the US?
yellottyellott 9mo ago
In Louisana there’s a stretch around all the refineries nicknamed Cancer Alley. The locals work the plants. Everyone gets sick. And they vote for expansion because it brings in more jobs. You need the regulations.

t1234s 9mo ago

You used to be able to buy leaded 110 gas as Sunoco in the early 2000's. It would make your exhaust tips turn white and had a sort of candy like smell when combusted.

grubbs 9mo ago
I remember people with various "tunes" at the racetrack would run this stuff. It definitely smelled like candy!
Faaak 9mo ago
AFAIK that's why leaded paint is bad for children: it tastes sweet so they continue licking it/eating the chips of paint that fall off the wall
- latexr 9mo ago
  You’re conjuring an image of children licking walls, but just the dust from the flaking paint chips is harmful. https://www.cdc.gov/lead-prevention/prevention/paint.html https://www.cdc.gov/lead-prevention/prevention/paint.html
- t1234s 9mo ago
  Water from lead pipes must have tasted amazing
  - titzer 9mo ago
    Ancient Romans used lead as a sweetener. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-deadly-sweetener-89984487/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-...
- ljlolel 9mo ago
  It’s why they added it to wine
myself248 9mo ago
Wait 'til you learn about avgas!

mistrial9 9mo ago

no one has mentioned "The Secret History of Lead" published by The Nation in March 2000. The long and detailed article exposed the deliberate and long-standing cover-up of leaded gasoline's dangers by major corporations. Villians include General Motors, Du Pont, and Standard Oil of New Jersey (now Exxon).

cfiggers 9mo ago

In my opinion it is obvious and should be uncontroversial that some environmental regulations work and are great and should if anything be reinforced, while other environmental regulations do more harm than good and need to be reigned in or eliminated. Turning "environmental regulation" into a unified bloc that must be either supported or opposed in totality is a manipulative political maneuver and it should be forcefully rejected. Regulations are not people, and they don't have rights. It is fair and reasonable to demand that environmental regulation justify its existence with hard, scientifically verifiable data or else get chopped. Clearly, banning leaded gasoline has that kind of justification, and therefore I'm strongly in favor of maintaining that ban and extending it wherever it isn't in place yet. The same reasonable standard should be applied to other regulations across the board.

soperj 9mo ago
> while other environmental regulations do more harm than good and need to be reigned in or eliminated. Prove it.
- cfiggers 9mo ago
  I have proven it to my own satisfaction. It's a pretty trivial proof. I'm sure you could derive your own, if you tried. How's this: if, at some point, it seems to me that your agreement would benefit me or advance something I care about, I promise I'll consider trying to convince you.
  - soperj 9mo ago
    "trust me bro"
AdamN 9mo ago
Basically everybody agrees with what you're saying which is what makes this an insidious comment. In general the pressure against regulation comes from narrow winners (oil industry for instance) whereas the pressure for regulations generally comes from people focused on the greater good (even if they are misled by other narrow winners, for instance compliance firms).

ck2 9mo ago

unless you live next to an airport or even remotely close to it then lead is being sprayed all over you, your car and home, daily for THREE DECADES NOW no rush, not like it's poison or does permanent damage to your health/IQ https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-was-phased-out-25-years-ago-why-are-n1264970 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-wa...

ryandrake 9mo ago
Acknowledging that there is no safe amount of lead exposure, the amount of lead that "is being sprayed all over you" from a tiny handful of piston airplanes is minuscule compared to what we were all exposed to prior to the mid 70s. Like many orders of magnitude. I'd be concerned if I worked at the airport pumping gas or something.
moffkalast 9mo ago
Yeah it's absurd how aviation is somehow exempt from these rules, especially since piston engine aircraft carry virtually no vital role in anything except people flying them for fun. There have been viable alternatives for a long long time now. I guess people who have money for personal airplanes also have the money to lobby when it matters for their interests. Pricks, I hope they die of dementia.
- mfkp 9mo ago
  Wow, very angry and uninformed comment. No airplane owners are lobbying for lead. As a pilot with a personal airplane that runs on avgas, we all want lead to go away too. But it's a problem with FAA regulations, and an infrastructure problem where every airport nationwide needs to have separate fuel tanks/trucks with leaded fuel and the newer lead-free alternatives simultaneously, which is a massive expense. Plus, there is no consensus on which lead-free alternative is safest for old engines, so we're still waiting on data. California has a few airports that are stocking the lead-free alternatives, but that's about it. But yes, blame the small aircraft owners if it makes you feel better. > "piston engine aircraft carry virtually no vital role in anything except people flying them for fun" I guess we just shouldn't train new pilots then.

lenerdenator 9mo ago

I really want to see elimination of lead (projectiles, lead styphnate primers, etc.) in firearms next. When I go to the range, every once in a while, I'll see one of the older marksmen who's there with his squirrel hunting rifle, chambered in .22 LR. I've noticed that he seems to have a tremor in his hands when he's loading his magazines. Essential tremor is linked to lead exposure [0] Most .22 LR projectiles are either just lead or have a copper "wash" over the lead, not a proper jacket like you see on other rounds. I wonder, if you shoot those loads for long enough, and breathe in enough gunsmoke, do you get that problem? As for the proof being in our hair... well, not mine. Chrome dome over here XD [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1241711/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1241711/

bikelang 9mo ago
I completely agree. I do everything I can to avoid leaded ammunition. I do not want lead touching the meat I harvest. It can be really tricky to find lead-free ammo of certain sizes. I mostly use waterfowl ammo for upland bird and rabbit - and it works fine. But even ordering ammo online it is quite hard to get .270 solid copper. And in a store? Forget about it
1970-01-01 9mo ago
Why would lead be in the gunsmoke? Everything leaded should be coming out the business end of the firearm, and it should be coming out with some gusto.
- jabl 9mo ago
  Because the heat and pressure from the propellant and rifling vaporizes or rubs off some of that lead. A very small percentage, granted, but still. Particularly for unjacketed bullets like 22LR. Even jacketed bullets tend to not be jacketed at the base.
- vel0city 9mo ago
  The material that burns in primers is often lead styphnate. This burns and sends lead particles throughout the air. With rounds that aren't well jacketed like those 22s that are just bare lead, you also get some of the round scraping in the barrels that comes off as dust. There's tons of lead in the air at shooting ranges.

gambiting 9mo ago

Fun fact - leaded petrol isn't actually banned in the UK, you can legally buy it and use it. The legislation at the time of bans just made it so that leaded petrol could only be a small % of overall petrol sales by any given fuel station, arguing that it allowed time for owners of unleaded-incompatible cars to purchase it. And....it worked pretty much exactly as designed - initially only the largest stations carried it because they could justify the storage costs, and eventually it disappeared from almost everywhere. Just before covid there were still 3 small garages selling leaded petrol by the drum, but afaik they all stopped doing so. And regardless - you can stil buy actual real Tetraethyl Lead fuel additive which turns your petrol into actual real 4-star leaded petrol, just like in the old days: https://www.demon-tweeks.com/tetraboost-e-guard-15-fuel-additive-with-ethanol-protection-lead-additive-tbotet15945/ https://www.demon-tweeks.com/tetraboost-e-guard-15-fuel-addi...

jabl 9mo ago
I recall there's one factory on the planet still producing TEL, so once they decide it's no longer profitable it's over. Aviation gasoline is probably the one market that still keeps it afloat, when/if piston aviation switches over the remaining market is small and insignificant.
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- tjohns 9mo ago
  At least in the US, the current proposed plan is to phase out leaded avgas by 2030: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/draft_unleaded_avgas_transition_plan https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/draft_unleaded_avgas...
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    That's never gonna happen by 2030. I wish.
tim333 9mo ago

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krunck 9mo ago

Also: Preserved hair reveals just how bad lead exposure was in the 20th century (livescience.com) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46872282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46872282

lysace 9mo ago

During the past year I have discovered that almost all retailers here in Sweden have voluntarily replaced their usual Teflon/polytetrafluoroethylene/PTFE frying pan coatings with something called 'ceramic'. (This includes IKEA globally, I assume.) The thing is - it's simply not as good. The worst case is probably frying frozen gyoza. They will get stuck when they get gelatinous on that 'ceramic' surface. I ended up looking up some slightly offbrand stores to get the pan that I wanted.

munificent 9mo ago
Humans were able to successfully fry food for hundreds of years before Teflon was invented. I still like non-stick pans for eggs, but for almost everything else, I prefer stainless steel, cast iron, or enameled cast iron. You do have to pay a little more attention to technique (knowing what temperature to heat the pan to before you put food on, etc.), but the end result is just about as good as a non-stick pan with many advantages: * You don't have to be obsessive about never letting a metal utensil scratch the pan. (I hope you aren't using a metal spatula or fork with your non-stick!) * You can scrape the hell out of the pan while you cook and get all that delicious crispy fond into what you're making. If I'm doing a pan sauce, it's always in the Dutch oven so I can get that fond into the gravy. * They last a lot longer. Even if you are careful, a non-stick pan will lose its coating and need to be replaced after a handful of years. I got my cast iron skillet for $15 at an antique store. It's older than me and will outlive me. * You're not, you know, eating forever chemicals.
- lysace 9mo ago
  I remember seeing a bunch of research showing that any teflon you ate was just pooped out, so to speak. This ceramic pan I bought from IKEA lasted like 3-5 months until I was unhappy with it. Historically, the teflon pans I have bought from there have lasted 12-18 months easily.
  - munificent 9mo ago
    For comparison: * I don't know how old my cast iron skillet is because I literally bought it from an antique store but I've had it for over a decade and it's in better shape than ever. * My $60 Lodge Dutch oven is over a decade old and has been used hundreds of times. * My stainless steel All-Clad skillet is relatively new at 5-6 years but is no worse than the day I got it.

j45 9mo ago

The concerning thing is how lead, arsenic are being found in things they are not reported in or labelled as being safe.

_DeadFred_ 9mo ago
I wonder how big a factor this is in creating podcast bros/tech bros. Is there actually a pipeline from 'get guy to start working out' to becoming a dumb bro? https://www.consumerreports.org/lead/protein-powders-and-shakes-contain-high-levels-of-lead-a4206364640/ https://www.consumerreports.org/lead/protein-powders-and-sha...
- j45 9mo ago
  Seems to be a regularish occurrence far beyond the podcast/tech crowd in many areas. Blind doubting of things can be as bad as blindly believing they're safe, if we don't know who's, or if anyone is keeping the safety honest. Capitalism can too often lean towards optimizing profit. Testing for lead, etc can be done independently pretty easily and consistently enough to get a statistically high enough correlation of what's going on. I get the stereotypes - but consuming anything in an unbalanced way will lead to being out of balance. Food, caffiene, alcohol, supplements.

WalterBright 9mo ago

I am so grateful that much of my childhood was in a town rather than a city.

chhxdjsj 9mo ago

I wish someone would do a large RCT of water fluoridation in pregnant women looking at long term cognitive outcomes if fetuses. It would be an easy study to do (just randomize each group to receive free deliveries of either fluoridated or not fluoridated water) and then look at their offspring’s scores on cognitive tests every few years. I think reputable scientists don’t touch this because they’re afraid of being labelled kooky.

LorenPechtel 9mo ago
Does the word Tuskegee mean anything to you? Because that's basically what you are asking for. Nor is there any need for such a study as we have a natural one: some areas have more fluorine in the water than others. We started putting fluorine in the water because we noticed that the places with higher natural levels had better teeth. There comes a point where it's too much and downsides appear, but, again, we already knew that. Note that this is a completely normal thing--there is nothing which is not toxic in sufficient quantity. Including *everything* that is necessary for human life. What would be strange is if there wasn't some maximum safe level. Some things the body easily eliminates and the range between minimum and maximum is quite wide. Things which are not so easily eliminated have narrower ranges. Thus we have the situation where overdose of water-soluble vitamins is basically unheard-of, but overdose of fat-soluble vitamins very definitely happens.

FlyingBears 9mo ago

Don’t worry, we can get our lead from spices and every food that includes them. Lead is cheaper to get than cinnamon and even cocoa, so it ends up being favored adulterant to increase weight at sale.

paulryanrogers 9mo ago
Considering what lead does to people, there should be jail time for everyone involved. Even store managers should do time if products on their shelves turn up positive.

halamadrid 9mo ago

If someone in the admin reads this, there is a chance this will be reversed and lead will be allowed in gas again :)

accidentallfact 9mo ago

That is expected. The problem is that people are not getting healthier, or more intelligent, quite the opposite. Obviously there is an absolutely massive problem that you're missing as you're congratulating yourself on "succeeding" with a massive effort with no clear result.

SV_BubbleTime 9mo ago
Good experiment… I guess turn the lead back on and we’ll see!
- accidentallfact 9mo ago
  Well, at the very least you need to agree that its effect was smaller than the harm done by whatever the actual problem is.

cyanydeez 9mo ago

I would argue it worked, but not fast enough. I think the current American politics run by 50-80 year olds with significant lead poisoning.

fuzzfactor 9mo ago

It's definitely lead. But when you do look at the details it doesn't look like the results point to the measured lead coming directly from gasoline itself. Just as likely if not more so coming from the neighborhood lead smelter that operated over a period of decades where the phaseout probably overlapped from both mineral and gasoline sources, in step with the regulations. These are rare samples but I wonder if it would be possible to determine how much lead was on the outside of the hairs which could be expected to settle from the atmosphere, compared to within the biological matrix itself which could have been incorporated metabolically? And in a ubiquitous TEL-using environment, would that form of lead build up more so on the outside of the hairs or the inside? With or without a lead smelter in the neighborhood?

Denatonium 9mo ago

As if tetraethyl lead in gasoline wasn't bad enough, they also added ethylene dichloride and/or ethylene dibromide, which acted as a lead scavengers, preventing deposits of insoluble lead (II) oxide from forming and clogging up engines/exhaust equipment. Instead, water-soluble-at-high-temperatures lead (II) chloride and lead (II) chloride were blasted out the tailpipes of vehicles using tetraethyl lead. These are mildly soluble at ambient temperatures, allowing the lead to permeate even further than it otherwise would have.