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> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the fi
by caseysoftware 8mo ago
> So it was never about security at all then, was it?
Never was.
I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again.
Then I realized I could even skip that.
Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the metal detector, swab my hands, and I'm done. I usually make it through before my bags.
Sometimes, a TSA moron asks "why not?" and I simply say "are you asking me to share my personal healthcare information out loud in front of a bunch of strangers? Are you a medical professional?" and they back down.
Other times, they've asked "can you raise them at least this high?" and kind of motion. I ask "are you asking me to potentially injure myself for your curiosity? are you going to pay for any injuries or pain I suffer?"
The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security.
- ryanscio 8mo agoSerious question: why? Most people I know who object to full-body millimeter-wave scanners either do so on pseudoscientific health claims, or “philosophical” anti-scanner objections that are structurally the same genre as sovereign-citizen or First-Amendment-auditor thinking.
- wpm 8mo agoI should not need to show an anonymous TSA agent my genitals, even if they are in black and white on some monitor theyre viewing in some back room, to get on a plane.
- tkuraku 8mo agoAt least currently the images are never seen by a person and are deleted after ATR.
- WaxProlix 8mo agoSure thing, and my Facebook account was hard deleted when I asked them to.
- its_magic 8mo agoAre you implying that Mark Zuckerberg is a liar, sir?
- deaux 8mo agoYou'll need to add a /s, else most here won't realize you're being sarcastic. You are, right?
- anonymars 8mo ago"Fool me twice...can't get fooled again"
- hackyhacky 8mo ago> I should not need to show an anonymous TSA agent my genitals Unless you want to!
- ryanscio 8mo agoI'd agree with this, but TSA scanners do not show anatomical details.
- baubino 8mo agoThere are legit health reasons to opt out of the scanner. I know because I have one of those conditions and have never been through the scanner.
- avalys 8mo agoWhat is an example of such a condition?
- jacquesm 8mo agoPacemaker, pregnancy, probably others.
- OneDeuxTriSeiGo 8mo agoStudies have all come out clean on pacemakers and mmWave. No detectable interference in the hardware or on an EKG while in a mmWave scanner. I could imagine other conditions potentially but pacemakers have been ruled a non issue for mmWave by academic studies (albeit I can understand still exercising caution despite that).
- kmoser 8mo agoHave they done thorough, decades-long studies on millimeter-wave machines to ensure they have absolutely no long-term adverse health effects?
- OneDeuxTriSeiGo 8mo agoTbh I'm not sure but they've done accelerated dosage testing to simulate long term use by repeatedly exposing people to use of the machine over a more frequent period of time. But mmWave really just is not dangerous. Current generation 5G cellular and WiFi standards are mmWave and they are just as harmless. Molecular damage just starts showing up with THF/terahertz emissions band but mmWave is in the EHF and is has more than 10x the wavelength of THF (i.e. it is far wider/more gentle than THF). In a very real sense mmWave can't even interact with most of the molecules in your body. mmWave can interact with the water in your body but at the levels it's being used it's only really useful for seeing the water. You'd needs orders of magnitude more powerful emissions than what these scanners use to actually cause damage at that frequency. i.e. It's the difference between using the flashlight on your phone to see in the dark and using the concentrated light from solar-thermal heliostats to boil water or heat molten salt. No matter how hard you try, your flashlight is never gonna boil water.
- AngryData 8mo agoI could ask the same serious question, why should I have to? There is zero reason to suspect me of being a suicidal maniac. Should we have such scanners to walk into a busy store or bus or subway system? Why don't private pilots and passengers have such screenings?
- prashantsengar 8mo agoTangential: Here in India we have security guards with hand-held metal detectors in malls, railway stations, and urban transit rails (metro) stations. The first time I visited a different country I was surprised to see my friend accompany me to the check-in counter and even further to drop me off. In India they wouldn't let you enter the airport if your flight doesn't depart soon enough.
- AngryData 8mo agoI don't think anyone in the US really cares about metal detectors, humans don't naturally contain metal and it is done completely hands off with no extra visual or biometric information or saved data. Plenty of people in this thread who opted out of other security measures still walked through a metal detector without any special note. Court houses and police stations have often have metal detectors that even a Senator or President would have to walk through. The same cannot be said of direct imaging of your body though or facial recognition or anything. If you wouldn't put your children through the process to go into school each day then it seems completely bonkers to require it for any form of mass transit.
- smelendez 8mo agoIt used to be normal in the U.S. to walk people to the gate until 9/11. Now you can escort someone to the check-in counter and up to the security checkpoint, and meet people at the luggage area to help with bags. But in practice it seems rare to do so if there isn’t a particular reason, probably because you’d have to pay to park or ride transit and it’s usually a trek beyond that. Honestly if they allowed you to go through security with the passenger and wait at the gate, I’m not sure how many people would even do it here (or how many passengers would want their loved ones to do so).
- jMyles 8mo agoTo me it's just a vote against the profiteers who make those machines. Also I kinda like the process better; the pat-down is nothin', and you can a full table to yourself to recombobulate. > First-Amendment-auditor thinking. Uhhh, I like that kind of thinking. Is there something wrong with first amendment auditors now?!
- zoklet-enjoyer 8mo agoFirst Amendment auditors have usually been attention seeking individuals making click bait YouTube videos. It's been interesting seeing the transformation from that to what we're seeing with people monitoring ICE.
- jMyles 8mo agoTo be honest, I watch very little of that content, so I had no idea. If they're unkind, then obviously that sucks. But walking around with cameras maintaining the unequivocal right to record what happens in the commons seems like a very important and thankless task.
- SpicyLemonZest 8mo agoPerhaps I haven't gotten a representative sample, but in 100% of the content I've seen from self-described "first amendment auditors", they're acting unpleasant and suspicious for absolutely no reason other than provoking a reaction. To me this seems like antisocial behavior that degrades rather than supports First Amendment protections. I consider myself a pretty strong First Amendment supporter, but if I routinely found strange men filming me as I walked down the street, I would support basically any legal change required to make them stop.
- jMyles 8mo ago> I consider myself a pretty strong First Amendment supporter, but if I routinely found strange men filming me as I walked down the street, I would support basically any legal change required to make them stop. It strikes me that the first clause of this sentence and the last one are unambiguously contradictory.
- kmoser 8mo agoThen why do they routinely send kids through the (non-invasive) metal detectors, while adults get sent through the millimeter-wave scanners?
- sokoloff 8mo agoI think it’s a mistake to assume these policy decisions all have peer-reviewed science behind them.
- renewiltord 8mo agoLots of society is like this. For example, red lights. I run them all the time and nothing happens. You just have to pay attention. It's why the police won't ticket you in SF. It doesn't matter. If anyone else complains you just yell "Am I being detained" a few times and then hit the accelerator. Teslas are fast. They can't catch you.
- RajT88 8mo agoQuite a modest proposal.
- throwup238 8mo agoWhat if the police department has Teslas?
- rPlayer6554 8mo agoAnother pro tip is to not pay at restaurants. If you can leave the restaurant fast enough before they give you the bill, they must have forgotten to charge you and sucks for them! The trick is not to bring bags so you can fake a trip to the toilet!
- Yiin 8mo agoif you're not joking, actions like these are why we can't have nice things in society, it's cancerous behavior and just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
- cwnyth 8mo agoI think the two comments above yours are poking fun at the guy who is committing a felony by lying to federal agents. They're just making it obvious what he's doing is really shitty, anti-social behavior.
- zoklet-enjoyer 8mo agoLying to TSA and other government representatives is patriotic
- desireco42 8mo agoThis is genius, thank you for sharing. I don't fly often, mostly because it became from glamorous to brutal experience.
- actionfromafar 8mo agoThe Republicans say you should dress up better, then it’s glamorous.
- kevin_thibedeau 8mo agoMake sure you bring a change of workout clothes too for the exercise room between flights.
- WaxProlix 8mo agoHoly shit that's genius, but I do worry about the minor degradation of respect for actual disabled folks if it becomes 'weaponized' in a widespread way
- spike021 8mo agoToday was the second time in a year I went into one and my crotch got flagged because of my pants zipper. nothing in my pockets. no belt. nothing hidden. etc. I was then subjected to full pat down and a shoe chemical test as a cherry on top. Might need to try convincing them next time to let me do the metal detector instead. What's the point of this higher fidelity scanner if it can't tell the difference between a fly and a restricted object?
- zoklet-enjoyer 8mo agoAre you sure it was the zipper?
- spike021 8mo agoit's a guess from looking at the screen where the red square is placed right around that zone.
- decimalenough 8mo ago/r/bigdickproblems
- cozzyd 8mo agoDerek Smalls?
- jpalawaga 8mo agoThis podcast episode might be of interest. https://www.searchengine.show/a-perfectly-average-anomaly/ https://www.searchengine.show/a-perfectly-average-anomaly/
- wildzzz 8mo agoAlmost always my back sweat from wearing a backpack shows up on the body scanner. Then a TSA agent has to put their gloved hand on my sweaty back. What a shit job lol. Whenever my backpack has been pulled aside for various reasons (large metal tools, too many loose wires, water bottle), I'll often get the bomb sniffer wipe.
- sgvfc 8mo ago[flagged]
- sndean 8mo agoI, too, dislike walking far. Here’s how I faked my way into a handicap parking tag.
- hackyhacky 8mo ago> I, too, dislike walking far. Here’s how I faked my way into a handicap parking tag. Cute analogy, but. Handicap parking tags provide value to those who need them. Depriving them of parking makes their lives harder. On the other hand, TSA is pure theater, as TFA makes clear. Avoiding this needless ritual saves time for the passenger, for the TSA officers, even for the other passengers, and does not increase risk at all. It's pure win-win.
- sndean 8mo agoThat’s fine and it is of course security theater / jobs program. I was put off by the feigning of disability to avoid a scanner and/or some inconvenience. This kind of behavior is okay, even great, but please come up with a more tasteful way. Otherwise I hope it’s a parody.
- deaux 8mo agoThere may be no more tasteful way, this is likely the only way.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- runako 8mo ago> When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." IANAL but I would be very cautious about lying to a federal agent, or anyone acting in a capacity on behalf of a federal agent (this is all of TSA).
- caseysoftware 8mo agoWho said I'm lying?
- runako 8mo agoFair! I was going to go back and edit, but my comment was more for other people who read your comment thinking it was a good idea for them to do (assuming they can raise their hands over their heads).
- caseysoftware 8mo agoSince the TSA cannot force you to prove it - after all, they're not medical personnel to evaluate it and not willing to risk your injury - whether someone lies becomes irrelevant.
- fsckboy 8mo ago"i can't raise my arms over my head" doesn't contain the word "medically". could be religious reasons, or simply personal superstition.
- twoodfin 8mo agoFederal judges just love this kind of language lawyering.
- fsckboy 8mo agoit's legal to say "I can't raise my arms over my head". it is then prohibited to ask people about disabilities, should somebody think to inquire. I was not saying "tell this to a judge", i was telling HN that yall were making assuumptions. (assuumptions makes ass-of-you-and-you)
- sargun 8mo agoWhat ethnicity are you? I went through an airport -- and nobody else got screened except me. What was special about me? I was the only non-white person in the airport. Upon complaining, this was the response: > Random selection by our screening technology prevents terrorists from attempting to defeat the security system by learning how it operates. Leaving out any one group, such as senior citizens, persons with disabilities, or children, would remove the random element from the system and undermine security. We simply cannot assume that all terrorists will fit a particular profile.
- caseysoftware 8mo agoI'm brown, very brown. A Native American, in fact.
- BizarroLand 8mo agoSame. Every border crossing. Every flight. Every interaction with police. I always get checked. I always get flagged. I always have by bags opened and my car searched coming back from Canada with officers holding large powerful machine guns and rifles in case I twitch to hard. I haven't so much as gotten a speeding ticket in nearly a decade but law enforcement and border guards break out the microscope every time they see me.
- ada1981 8mo agoI was so confused last time I traveled as I watched this brown skinned family getting shaken down for ID by TSA and they literally just waived me past and said didn't need ID. Mind you I've never not been asked to show ID to TSA before this.
- ada1981 8mo agoCurious about the downvotes here, it's 100% relevant to the conversation and is personal experience. I imagine it's tone policing to ensure we don't criticize the techo-facist edgelord take over?
- chaboud 8mo ago
- noduerme 8mo agoNice trick. I always opted out of the scanners, dozens of times, and just got used to bantering with guys while they were patting my balls.
- caseysoftware 8mo agoI did that for a long time. My favorite part is when they say "Do you have any sore or sensitive areas?" I always say "my penis" and they say "uh.. well.. I'm not going to touch that" Me: "When you slide your hand up until you meet resistance? That resistance is my penis. You're going to touch my penis and it's a sensitive area."
- chias 8mo agooh my GOD I'm wheezing here :D I fly next week, I will have to decide whether having this conversation is worth not trying to get out of the opt-out procedure. The difficulty will be keeping a straight face.
- noduerme 8mo agoHate to say it, but I finally just sold my soul and got Global Entry, and no one's even tried to touch my balls since hah
- noduerme 8mo agohahah. I never really comprehended what "I'm going to slide my hand up until I meet resistance" meant. I guess it depends which way the camel's nose is facing, what kinda resistance they're gonna get. I did meet a lot of older TSA agents who told me they tried to stand as far away from the scanners as possible all day, and they completely understood my position on not going through em. I'm from LA, and I remember when this happened [0] so my general view on letting anyone shoot any kind of imaging radiation through me is pretty dim, but more so if they can't count to ten or tie their own shoelaces. [0] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-oct-13-me-cedars13-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-oct-13-me-cedar...
- keeda 8mo ago> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want. A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where somebody felt uncomfortable boarding a plane because they saw the screening agent asleep at the desk. Pro-tip, trying to explain security theater to the concerned passenger is not the right solution at this point ;-) Even Bruce Schneier, who coined the term "security theater" has moderated his stance to acknowledge that it can satisfy a real psychological need, even if it's irrational. We may be more cynical and look upon such things with disdain, but most people want the illusion of safety, even if deep down they know it's just an illusion.
- seg_lol 8mo agoSecurity Theater Blanket
- user3939382 8mo agoTaxpayers haven’t agreed to fund theater they agreed to fund safer travel. The failed audits of TSA are totally unacceptable
- lazide 8mo agoThe purpose of the system is what it does. If enough people actually cared about the failed audits, we’d invest in making sure they didn’t fail. As it is, it’s settled in this funky middle ground that seems to maximize cost/incompetence/hassle which is generally the picture of America overall.
- mlrtime 8mo agoTaxpayers don't universally agree it's ONLY theater, HN is biased echo chamber just like any other group.
- mft_ 8mo ago> A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where somebody felt uncomfortable boarding a plane because they saw the screening agent asleep at the desk. I’d hazard that this may be true now, but this feeling was created by the same “security measures” we’re discussing. Anyway, such major population-wide measures shouldn’t be about stopping people being “uncomfortable” - they should be about minimising risk, or not at all. If you start imposing laws or other practices every time a group of people feel “uncomfortable”, the world will quickly grind to a halt.
- whamlastxmas 8mo agoI did this about a dozen times until I had too many TSA agents become extremely shitty and hostile towards me. The last two times they were making threats as I was walking away that they were going to "get me". I decided my protest opt out excuse wasn't worth dealing with attitude. They usually also made me stand there and wait sort of blocking everyone for 5-10 minutes until they even called someone over
- chias 8mo agoThis is brilliant. I continue to opt out and get the pat down every single time. Which is annoying because they deliberately make it slow and anxiety inducing with your bags are out of sight for quite a while. I used to "punish" the rude or particularly slow ones by insisting on a private screening (since that involves two officers, and Is A Whole Thing) but I haven't gotten a rude one in a few years. But that also just makes it take even longer.
- mustyoshi 8mo agoIt's hard to put into words, but you're eroding the social contract through your actions. People with conditions get accused of faking it all the time, and it sounds like you're actually faking it.
- sigmoid10 8mo agoIf he was doing that to get faster treatment at a hospital or even just a restaurant or something then I'd agree. But by doing it to get faster treatment at the TSA check he's literally doing everyone else a favour.
- morcus 8mo agoThe argument is that if tricks like this were to become widespread, they may start requiring certified medical documentation (or other hurdles) for said faster treatment, making life even more annoying for people with genuine issues.
- sigmoid10 8mo agoIn that case would actually increase security, right? Ans with genuine medical issues it should be no problem to get the necessary documentation. Either way, the consumers win.
- bz_bz_bz 8mo agoIf they opted for a pat down for 6 years, then faster treatment clearly wasn’t the goal. Metal detector + swabbing is not faster than the scanner either.
- sigmoid10 8mo agoDepends heavily on where you fly from. From the original comment it clearly seems that it does make it faster.
- gradus_ad 8mo agoSo... You're lying about having a health condition in a loud and obnoxious way? Not sure what the point is. Just because you can get around TSA checkpoints doesn't mean it's not "about" security. There's only so much that can be done when we have to balance safety and convenience.
- edm0nd 8mo ago1) its okay to the lie to the TSA and troll them. the TSA is just low skilled jobs program. 2) those scanning machines have leaked their images before to the public so its okay not to want to go through them and have your.png on there forever.
- jonnybgood 8mo agoYou sound insufferable. Why do they need to be a moron? As you state, designed as a jobs program. So, these workers are low paying government employees who likely have trouble attaining a job or maintaining high job security. You likely live a far more privileged life than these workers. You think they want to do this job? And you call them a moron for simply attempting to do their job?
- int_19h 8mo agoWell, their job is literally to harass people, and they knew that getting hired.
- drob518 8mo agoAnd it’s been confirmed by red teams sneaking weapons through checkpoints that it’s not even doing the basic job. Lots of hassle and expense for little to no gain in security.
- czhu12 8mo agoI’m genuinely confused by this take. Admittedly my knowledge of exactly how the TSA operates is quite shallow, but don’t they xray your bags and scan for weapons on your body? Are we saying that if they stopped doing that there would not be an increase in incidents? Or is it that they are overly performative? I’ve never been all that annoyed with raising my hands above my head, but it seems like, in your case, if a passenger can’t do that, they would make an exception for you anyways. Which seems fair?