3 ms·

Also: do you want a promotion or just a raise? A promotion means you are getting a different job, typically leadership, which means working with people more wi

by GuB-42 9mo ago

Also: do you want a promotion or just a raise? A promotion means you are getting a different job, typically leadership, which means working with people more with machines. If you are better with machines than you are with people, do you really want that? does your employer really wants that? If you are twice as fast and twice as good as others doing some job, and if you like that job, what you want is double pay, not a promotion to a position you won't be as good at. That's Peter's principle, and your managers have heard about it too.

tpoacher 9mo ago
True, but many types of employment don't support this kind of raise without a promotion.
- GJim 9mo ago
  Which in engineering, is ridiculous. We've all met many brilliant engineers with the social skills of a lettuce. The idea they cannot get a raise in salary unless promoted to management is just daft. It appears the problem is many managers regard underlings getting paid more than them as unhealthy; despite the fact the job descriptions are vastly different.
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > many managers regard underlings getting paid more than them as unhealthy Yeah, I never understood this. As a manager I've always strived to earn less than those I help do their job (meaning pushing their salary up whenever I could), they're doing all the heavy lifting and I'm just along for the ride trying to unblock them and coordinate stuff. Not sure why there are managers who think they should earn more than the people doing the grunt-work, but then again, the world is filled with people who think they're more important than they are.
    - RGamma 9mo ago
      If that is true then hats off. You are a very rare breed. Though one should consider that eventually (additional) legal responsibilities come into play, that need to be worth something as well.
  - lux-lux-lux 9mo ago
    Unfortunately, management can remain irrational longer than your income can keep up with the rising cost of living
- Narann 9mo ago
  Many executives consider managing peoples is harder than managing machines, and that having many people working together have a better value than a single person. As such, many want a raise, but no-one want to manage peoples and have responsibilities that involve human factor (state otherwise, it is easier to be sure about the result of your own work than the work of your whole team). That’s the reason why it is easier to ask for a raise as a manager than a single coder.
- tripledry 9mo ago
  Yea, in the company I work in (entire country it seems tbh) - it's exceedingly rare for contributers to get a raise over a certain point. If I want to increase my income I kinda have to go into management. I'm sure there are outliers, but this seems to be the norm.
embedding-shape 9mo ago
> your managers have heard about it too Probably. Most managers would also argue that because you're so great with machines, you'll surely be even greater at managing others who are supposed to be great with machines. Does that make sense? No. Do managers and executives think like this anyways? Yes. I'm sure most managers and executives on HN though doesn't think like that, surely are the exception. But out in the wild world, people truly get promoted mostly on whims and personal relationships without thinking "are they better with machines than people perhaps?", because that's the easy way. People also feel excluded if they aren't considered for promotions, even if the promotion in question wouldn't make sense.
- Reimersholme 9mo ago
  > Probably. Most managers would also argue that because you're so great with machines, you'll surely be even greater at managing others who are supposed to be great with machines. Does that make sense? No. Do managers and executives think like this anyways? Yes. I'd say the opposite is true. In modern management theory, the value of domain knowledge for managers is severely undervalued.
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > the value of domain knowledge for managers is severely undervalued Sure, but you can always pick that up as you learn how things work. It's a bit harder to do that in engineering as it requires years of experience with your craft. Just like a manager just starting out isn't gonna have the right intuition and hunches until some years of experience, you can't just "pick that up", that is the expertise, unlike domain knowledge.
    - fallingfrog 9mo ago
      Would you put a professional manager straight out of business school with no military experience in charge of a platoon of marines and send them into a war zone? How do you imagine that would pan out? if not, why would you put such a person in charge of an engineering team? Do you imagine it would go any better? Like sure eventually the person will learn the job but only after a significant cost in bad decisions.
nradclif 9mo ago
In tech companies, there’s usually both technical and management tracks, and you can be promoted up the ladder (many times over) without changing jobs. At a certain point you’ll do less design and coding, and more high level strategy, but that’s not until you’re nearing the top of the ladder.
everly 9mo ago
A funny scene in 30 Rock is when Tracy learns about the Peter Principle and responds "but my incompetence knows no bounds!"
tialaramex 9mo ago
> That's Peter's principle, and your managers have heard about it too. All this sort of thing was true when I went to management college, last century, and it was well known to my line management, and yet, nevertheless, all the observations were still true because in effect it's an observation about human nature. It would be guidance if people were guided by it, but they aren't. "I know that's a bad idea, but I'll do it anyway" counts for "We should fire all the people whose performance review didn't rate them above average" just like "I only had a couple glasses of wine, I'm fine to drive".
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

by GuB-42 9mo ago

tpoacher 9mo ago

True, but many types of employment don't support this kind of raise without a promotion.

GJim 9mo ago
Which in engineering, is ridiculous. We've all met many brilliant engineers with the social skills of a lettuce. The idea they cannot get a raise in salary unless promoted to management is just daft. It appears the problem is many managers regard underlings getting paid more than them as unhealthy; despite the fact the job descriptions are vastly different.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > many managers regard underlings getting paid more than them as unhealthy Yeah, I never understood this. As a manager I've always strived to earn less than those I help do their job (meaning pushing their salary up whenever I could), they're doing all the heavy lifting and I'm just along for the ride trying to unblock them and coordinate stuff. Not sure why there are managers who think they should earn more than the people doing the grunt-work, but then again, the world is filled with people who think they're more important than they are.
  - RGamma 9mo ago
    If that is true then hats off. You are a very rare breed. Though one should consider that eventually (additional) legal responsibilities come into play, that need to be worth something as well.
- lux-lux-lux 9mo ago
  Unfortunately, management can remain irrational longer than your income can keep up with the rising cost of living
Narann 9mo ago
Many executives consider managing peoples is harder than managing machines, and that having many people working together have a better value than a single person. As such, many want a raise, but no-one want to manage peoples and have responsibilities that involve human factor (state otherwise, it is easier to be sure about the result of your own work than the work of your whole team). That’s the reason why it is easier to ask for a raise as a manager than a single coder.
tripledry 9mo ago
Yea, in the company I work in (entire country it seems tbh) - it's exceedingly rare for contributers to get a raise over a certain point. If I want to increase my income I kinda have to go into management. I'm sure there are outliers, but this seems to be the norm.

embedding-shape 9mo ago

> your managers have heard about it too Probably. Most managers would also argue that because you're so great with machines, you'll surely be even greater at managing others who are supposed to be great with machines. Does that make sense? No. Do managers and executives think like this anyways? Yes. I'm sure most managers and executives on HN though doesn't think like that, surely are the exception. But out in the wild world, people truly get promoted mostly on whims and personal relationships without thinking "are they better with machines than people perhaps?", because that's the easy way. People also feel excluded if they aren't considered for promotions, even if the promotion in question wouldn't make sense.

Reimersholme 9mo ago
> Probably. Most managers would also argue that because you're so great with machines, you'll surely be even greater at managing others who are supposed to be great with machines. Does that make sense? No. Do managers and executives think like this anyways? Yes. I'd say the opposite is true. In modern management theory, the value of domain knowledge for managers is severely undervalued.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > the value of domain knowledge for managers is severely undervalued Sure, but you can always pick that up as you learn how things work. It's a bit harder to do that in engineering as it requires years of experience with your craft. Just like a manager just starting out isn't gonna have the right intuition and hunches until some years of experience, you can't just "pick that up", that is the expertise, unlike domain knowledge.
  - fallingfrog 9mo ago
    Would you put a professional manager straight out of business school with no military experience in charge of a platoon of marines and send them into a war zone? How do you imagine that would pan out? if not, why would you put such a person in charge of an engineering team? Do you imagine it would go any better? Like sure eventually the person will learn the job but only after a significant cost in bad decisions.

nradclif 9mo ago

In tech companies, there’s usually both technical and management tracks, and you can be promoted up the ladder (many times over) without changing jobs. At a certain point you’ll do less design and coding, and more high level strategy, but that’s not until you’re nearing the top of the ladder.

everly 9mo ago

A funny scene in 30 Rock is when Tracy learns about the Peter Principle and responds "but my incompetence knows no bounds!"

tialaramex 9mo ago

> That's Peter's principle, and your managers have heard about it too. All this sort of thing was true when I went to management college, last century, and it was well known to my line management, and yet, nevertheless, all the observations were still true because in effect it's an observation about human nature. It would be guidance if people were guided by it, but they aren't. "I know that's a bad idea, but I'll do it anyway" counts for "We should fire all the people whose performance review didn't rate them above average" just like "I only had a couple glasses of wine, I'm fine to drive".

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]