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”I don't care deeply about this code. It's not a masterpiece. It's functional code that is very useful to me.” - AI software engineering in a nutshell. Leaving

by nialse 9mo ago

”I don't care deeply about this code. It's not a masterpiece. It's functional code that is very useful to me.” - AI software engineering in a nutshell. Leaving the human artisan era of code behind. Function over form. Substance over style. Getting stuff done.

vasco 9mo ago
The art department is that way, we do engineering here. Faster is better.
- figassis 9mo ago
  What part of faster is better means engineering to you? Non engineers will prefer you get there faster, but however you get there, better is better.
  - vasco 9mo ago
    If you want to say something just say it no need for trap questions. Faster delivery of a project being better for engineering is obviously one of the most important things because it gives you back time to invest in other parts of your project. All engineering is trade-offs. Being faster at developing basic code is better, the end. If nothing else you can now spend more time on requirements and on a second iteration with your customer.
    - frizlab 9mo ago
      > obviously one of the most important things because it gives you back time to invest in other parts of your project That is until you get so deep in code debt that you cannot move anymore. There is an equilibrium to be found. Faster is not always better, and trying to have every single line perfect is not good either.
      - vasco 9mo ago
        I did mention trade offs.
- swiftcoder 9mo ago
  > we do engineering here Well, we make software, at any rate. Most of the time that's pretty divorced from capital-E engineering, which is why we get to be cavalier about the quality of the result - let me know how you feel about the bridges and tunnels you drive on being built "as fast as possible, to hell with safety"
  - vasco 9mo ago
    Don't put words in my mouth, you don't care about safety not me. And for what it's worth I'm an electrical engineer first, so if you have some inferiority complex about software you don't have to apply it to me.
    - swiftcoder 9mo ago
      Hey, you're the one who said "faster is better", not me
      - vasco 8mo ago
        Consider applying the strongest version of an argument than the weakest. Obviously faster it's better means to a similar standard. Not faster due to a shittier standard.
codeforclout 9mo ago
Was about to comment precisely this, that line does not inspire any confidence. And it reminds me of a comment I saw in a thread 2 days ago. One about how RAPIDLY ITERATIVE the environment is now. There area lot of weekend projects being made over the knee of a robot nowadays and then instantly shared. Even OpenClaw is to a great extent, an example of that at its current age. Which comes in contrast to the length of time it used to take to get these small projects off the ground in the past. And also in contrast with how much code gets abandoned before and after "public release. I'm looking at AI evangelists and I know they're largely correct about AI. I also look at what the heck they built, and either they're selling me something AI related, or have a bunch of defunct one-shot babies or mostly tools so limited in scope they server only themselves with it. We used to have a filter for these things. Salesmen always sold promises, so, no change there, just the buzzwords. But the cloutchasers? Those were way smaller in number. People building the "thing" so the "thing" exists mostly stopped before we ever heard of the "thing", because, turns out, caring about the "thing" does not actually translate to the motivation to getting it done. Or Maintain it. What we have now is a reverse survivorship bias. OOP stating they don't care about the state of their code during their public release, means I must assume they're a Cloutchaser. Either they don't care because they know they can do better which means they shared something that isn't their best, so their motivation with the comment is to highlight the idea. They just wanted to be first. Clout. Or they don't exactly concern with if they can as they just don't care about code in general and just want the product, be it good or be it not. They believe in the idea enough they want to ensure it exists, regardless of what's in the pudding. Which means to me, they also don't care to understand what's in the ingredient list. Which means they aren't best to maintain it. And that latter is the kind that, before the LLM slop was a concept in our minds, were precisely ones among the people who would give up half way through Making The "Thing". See you in 16 weeks OP. I'll eat my shoe then.
_zoltan_ 9mo ago
There should never have been an "artisan era". We use computers to solve problems. You should have always getting stuff done instead of bikeshedding over nitty-gritty details, like when in the office people have been spending weeks on optimizing code... just to have the exact same output, exact same time, but now "nicer". You get paid to get stuff done, period.
- frizlab 9mo ago
  Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. Hell even art! Why should art even be a thing? We are machine driven by neurons, feelings do not exist. Might be your life, it ain’t mine. I’m an artisan of code, and I’m proud to be one. I might finally use AI one of these days at work because I’ll have to, but I’ll never stop cherishing doing hand-crafted code.
  - enraged_camel 9mo ago
    >> Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. That's funny you bring up those examples, because they have all moved on to the mass manufacturing era. You can still get artisan quality stuff but it typically costs a lot more and there's a lot less of it. Which is why mass-manufacturing won. Same is going to happen with software. LLMs are just the beginning.
    - fragmede 9mo ago
      Did you get the Eames version of Windows, or a knockoff?
      - enraged_camel 9mo ago
        Windows was probably the worst example you could use in this context!
    - frizlab 9mo ago
      Oh no, but I know! And it is indeed terrible. I live in a city where there are new houses being built. They are ugly. Meanwhile, the ones that exist since a long time ago have charm and feel homely. I don’t know, I‘m probably just a regular old man yelling at clouds, but I still think we’re going in the wrong direction. For pretty much everything. And for what? Money. Yay! Hugh.
thepasch 9mo ago
“Human artisan era of code” is hilarious if you’ve worked in any corporate codebase whatsoever. I’m still not entirely sure what some of the snippets I’ve seen actually are, but I can say with determination and certainty that none of it was art. The truth about vibe coding is that, fundamentally, it’s not much more than a fast-forward button: ff you were going to write good code by hand, you know how to guide an LLM to write good code for you. If, given infinite time, you would never have been able to achieve what you’re trying to get the LLM to do anyway, then the result is going to be a complete dumpster load. It’s still garbage in, garbage out, as it’s always been; there’s just a lot more of it now.
pawelduda 9mo ago
I too miss gathering 20 devs in the same room and debating company-wide linter rules. AI ruined the craft \s
naasking 9mo ago
> AI software engineering in a nutshell. Leaving the human artisan era of code behind. Function over form. Substance over style. Getting stuff done The invention of calculators and computers also left the human artisan era of slide rules, calculation charts and accounting. If that's really what you care about, what are you even doing here?
satvikpendem 9mo ago
Code is the means to an end of getting stuff done, not the end in itself as some people seem to think. Yes, being a code artisan is fun, but do not mistake the fun for its ultimate purpose.

by nialse 9mo ago

vasco 9mo ago

The art department is that way, we do engineering here. Faster is better.

figassis 9mo ago
What part of faster is better means engineering to you? Non engineers will prefer you get there faster, but however you get there, better is better.
- vasco 9mo ago
  If you want to say something just say it no need for trap questions. Faster delivery of a project being better for engineering is obviously one of the most important things because it gives you back time to invest in other parts of your project. All engineering is trade-offs. Being faster at developing basic code is better, the end. If nothing else you can now spend more time on requirements and on a second iteration with your customer.
  - frizlab 9mo ago
    > obviously one of the most important things because it gives you back time to invest in other parts of your project That is until you get so deep in code debt that you cannot move anymore. There is an equilibrium to be found. Faster is not always better, and trying to have every single line perfect is not good either.
    - vasco 9mo ago
      I did mention trade offs.
swiftcoder 9mo ago
> we do engineering here Well, we make software, at any rate. Most of the time that's pretty divorced from capital-E engineering, which is why we get to be cavalier about the quality of the result - let me know how you feel about the bridges and tunnels you drive on being built "as fast as possible, to hell with safety"
- vasco 9mo ago
  Don't put words in my mouth, you don't care about safety not me. And for what it's worth I'm an electrical engineer first, so if you have some inferiority complex about software you don't have to apply it to me.
  - swiftcoder 9mo ago
    Hey, you're the one who said "faster is better", not me
    - vasco 8mo ago
      Consider applying the strongest version of an argument than the weakest. Obviously faster it's better means to a similar standard. Not faster due to a shittier standard.

codeforclout 9mo ago

Was about to comment precisely this, that line does not inspire any confidence. And it reminds me of a comment I saw in a thread 2 days ago. One about how RAPIDLY ITERATIVE the environment is now. There area lot of weekend projects being made over the knee of a robot nowadays and then instantly shared. Even OpenClaw is to a great extent, an example of that at its current age. Which comes in contrast to the length of time it used to take to get these small projects off the ground in the past. And also in contrast with how much code gets abandoned before and after "public release. I'm looking at AI evangelists and I know they're largely correct about AI. I also look at what the heck they built, and either they're selling me something AI related, or have a bunch of defunct one-shot babies or mostly tools so limited in scope they server only themselves with it. We used to have a filter for these things. Salesmen always sold promises, so, no change there, just the buzzwords. But the cloutchasers? Those were way smaller in number. People building the "thing" so the "thing" exists mostly stopped before we ever heard of the "thing", because, turns out, caring about the "thing" does not actually translate to the motivation to getting it done. Or Maintain it. What we have now is a reverse survivorship bias. OOP stating they don't care about the state of their code during their public release, means I must assume they're a Cloutchaser. Either they don't care because they know they can do better which means they shared something that isn't their best, so their motivation with the comment is to highlight the idea. They just wanted to be first. Clout. Or they don't exactly concern with if they can as they just don't care about code in general and just want the product, be it good or be it not. They believe in the idea enough they want to ensure it exists, regardless of what's in the pudding. Which means to me, they also don't care to understand what's in the ingredient list. Which means they aren't best to maintain it. And that latter is the kind that, before the LLM slop was a concept in our minds, were precisely ones among the people who would give up half way through Making The "Thing". See you in 16 weeks OP. I'll eat my shoe then.

_zoltan_ 9mo ago

There should never have been an "artisan era". We use computers to solve problems. You should have always getting stuff done instead of bikeshedding over nitty-gritty details, like when in the office people have been spending weeks on optimizing code... just to have the exact same output, exact same time, but now "nicer". You get paid to get stuff done, period.

frizlab 9mo ago
Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. Hell even art! Why should art even be a thing? We are machine driven by neurons, feelings do not exist. Might be your life, it ain’t mine. I’m an artisan of code, and I’m proud to be one. I might finally use AI one of these days at work because I’ll have to, but I’ll never stop cherishing doing hand-crafted code.
- enraged_camel 9mo ago
  >> Yeah. Exactly the same as there should never be an “artisan era” for chairs, tables, buildings, etc. That's funny you bring up those examples, because they have all moved on to the mass manufacturing era. You can still get artisan quality stuff but it typically costs a lot more and there's a lot less of it. Which is why mass-manufacturing won. Same is going to happen with software. LLMs are just the beginning.
  - fragmede 9mo ago
    Did you get the Eames version of Windows, or a knockoff?
    - enraged_camel 9mo ago
      Windows was probably the worst example you could use in this context!
  - frizlab 9mo ago
    Oh no, but I know! And it is indeed terrible. I live in a city where there are new houses being built. They are ugly. Meanwhile, the ones that exist since a long time ago have charm and feel homely. I don’t know, I‘m probably just a regular old man yelling at clouds, but I still think we’re going in the wrong direction. For pretty much everything. And for what? Money. Yay! Hugh.

thepasch 9mo ago

“Human artisan era of code” is hilarious if you’ve worked in any corporate codebase whatsoever. I’m still not entirely sure what some of the snippets I’ve seen actually are, but I can say with determination and certainty that none of it was art. The truth about vibe coding is that, fundamentally, it’s not much more than a fast-forward button: ff you were going to write good code by hand, you know how to guide an LLM to write good code for you. If, given infinite time, you would never have been able to achieve what you’re trying to get the LLM to do anyway, then the result is going to be a complete dumpster load. It’s still garbage in, garbage out, as it’s always been; there’s just a lot more of it now.

pawelduda 9mo ago

I too miss gathering 20 devs in the same room and debating company-wide linter rules. AI ruined the craft \s

naasking 9mo ago

> AI software engineering in a nutshell. Leaving the human artisan era of code behind. Function over form. Substance over style. Getting stuff done The invention of calculators and computers also left the human artisan era of slide rules, calculation charts and accounting. If that's really what you care about, what are you even doing here?

satvikpendem 9mo ago

Code is the means to an end of getting stuff done, not the end in itself as some people seem to think. Yes, being a code artisan is fun, but do not mistake the fun for its ultimate purpose.