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Show HN: Holy Mess – Israeli–Palestinian conflict from an atheist angle

3 points by whyage 8mo ago

Hi HN — This book is free to read or listen. I’m genuinely interested in critique on this attempt to analyze the Israeli–Palestinian conflict through an atheist lens. If you’re familiar with the region or with how ideology and identity shape long-running conflicts, I’d love your toughest feedback.

throw310822 8mo ago
I find the religious side as naive as it is pointless. Of course there are two populations that differ in religion and ethnicity- although Judaism is a culture as well as a religion, Jews are at the same time an ethno-religious group, accepting almost no converts, and mix of multiple ethnicities bound by a common cultural heritage. Many (Israeli) Jews are atheists. On the other hand, Palestinians include also a Christian minority and even large familial tribes of well-known Jewish origin. But let’s clear the field from confounding factors. Someone comes to your home, chases you out and claims it exclusively for himself and his family. This is what happened, metaphorically with the whole land, and literally with Palestinians’ homes. The religious factor here is secondary- there is a nationalistic factor at play, a tribal factor, where one group invades some land (to which it claims a tenuous historical/ religious connection) and chases out its current inhabitants to have complete control over it. How do we explain the ongoing conflict? First of all, as I’ve just shown, it’s all very simple: western immigrants come to a foreign land and decide to take it for themselves and those who they deem to belong their group (which they also decide it includes middle-eastern Jews, which they call in from yet other countries). Violent reaction ensues, but the superior forces of the colonisers, backed by western powers, is overwhelming. Every outburst of violence provides the excuse for new land grabs, so the violent resistance of the colonised becomes the necessary fuel for further colonisation. Provocations need to be kept at the right level. Israel is a small country, in good part arid or desert. Every few sq. kms of expansion do provide substantial increase in the total land available. Just think of the real estate value of square kilometres of land becoming open for development in such a small country. Imagine the real estate value of 40 kms of mediterranean coastline. Not to mention the natural resources, the gas fields outside the coast that fall in part into Palestinian borders. The reason for fuelling the tensions that provide the excuses for more land grab is obvious. As for the price of this constant tension and the terrorism, nations have sent entire generations to die for much less. The price that Israel is paying for what it’s getting, for what it will eventually get, is frankly a bargain one. A good part of its military is subsidised by the US anyway. Ok, then what’s the way out? The simplest one. Just. Set. A. Fucking. Border. Forever. The 1967 border. Make sure Israel understands that the border will never change and that anything that is built or brought beyond that border is on foreign land and will be given to Palestinians. Sanction every violation, shoot on any vehicle that crosses the border without authorisation in either direction. Give money to Palestinians to rebuild and organise their own country. Make sure both Palestinians and Israelis feel safe inside their respective borders. End of the story. With safety and the end of the occupation hatred and fanaticism will eventually subside. The astute reader might ask: if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? Then please re-read paragraph 3.
- alighter 8mo ago
  In your vision, can Jews live on the other side of the border?
  - throw310822 8mo ago
    As long as they accept to live under a Palestinian state. (Normally immigration should have a path to citizenship and voting rights, but both Israel and Palestine would want to preserve the national nature of their states, as Israel already does).
    - throw627933788 8mo ago
      How many Jews live under Palestinian control at the moment?
      - throw310822 8mo ago
        I have no idea, but it's funny that some people think this is a smart question that will make them score a point. Why would Jews want to live as the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, when that means living under occupation, being subjected to Israeli military law, being powerless against settlers violence and the prepotence of Israel? And what would they do, immigrate there from New York and start a farm, with a pinky promise that they won't turn into settlers and seek to join Israel? And of course it would be risky, when they are so easily associated with the settlers and the occupying power- no point in denying it. Nonetheless, there are entire large Palestinian clans that claim to descend from Jews and retain some of their customs: a famous example is the Makhamra family.
        mhb 8mo ago
        And what happened to Israelis who wanted to take a stroll through Gaza (prior to October 7, of course)?
        8mo ago

3 points by whyage 8mo ago

throw310822 8mo ago

I find the religious side as naive as it is pointless. Of course there are two populations that differ in religion and ethnicity- although Judaism is a culture as well as a religion, Jews are at the same time an ethno-religious group, accepting almost no converts, and mix of multiple ethnicities bound by a common cultural heritage. Many (Israeli) Jews are atheists. On the other hand, Palestinians include also a Christian minority and even large familial tribes of well-known Jewish origin. But let’s clear the field from confounding factors. Someone comes to your home, chases you out and claims it exclusively for himself and his family. This is what happened, metaphorically with the whole land, and literally with Palestinians’ homes. The religious factor here is secondary- there is a nationalistic factor at play, a tribal factor, where one group invades some land (to which it claims a tenuous historical/ religious connection) and chases out its current inhabitants to have complete control over it. How do we explain the ongoing conflict? First of all, as I’ve just shown, it’s all very simple: western immigrants come to a foreign land and decide to take it for themselves and those who they deem to belong their group (which they also decide it includes middle-eastern Jews, which they call in from yet other countries). Violent reaction ensues, but the superior forces of the colonisers, backed by western powers, is overwhelming. Every outburst of violence provides the excuse for new land grabs, so the violent resistance of the colonised becomes the necessary fuel for further colonisation. Provocations need to be kept at the right level. Israel is a small country, in good part arid or desert. Every few sq. kms of expansion do provide substantial increase in the total land available. Just think of the real estate value of square kilometres of land becoming open for development in such a small country. Imagine the real estate value of 40 kms of mediterranean coastline. Not to mention the natural resources, the gas fields outside the coast that fall in part into Palestinian borders. The reason for fuelling the tensions that provide the excuses for more land grab is obvious. As for the price of this constant tension and the terrorism, nations have sent entire generations to die for much less. The price that Israel is paying for what it’s getting, for what it will eventually get, is frankly a bargain one. A good part of its military is subsidised by the US anyway. Ok, then what’s the way out? The simplest one. Just. Set. A. Fucking. Border. Forever. The 1967 border. Make sure Israel understands that the border will never change and that anything that is built or brought beyond that border is on foreign land and will be given to Palestinians. Sanction every violation, shoot on any vehicle that crosses the border without authorisation in either direction. Give money to Palestinians to rebuild and organise their own country. Make sure both Palestinians and Israelis feel safe inside their respective borders. End of the story. With safety and the end of the occupation hatred and fanaticism will eventually subside. The astute reader might ask: if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? Then please re-read paragraph 3.

alighter 8mo ago
In your vision, can Jews live on the other side of the border?
- throw310822 8mo ago
  As long as they accept to live under a Palestinian state. (Normally immigration should have a path to citizenship and voting rights, but both Israel and Palestine would want to preserve the national nature of their states, as Israel already does).
  - throw627933788 8mo ago
    How many Jews live under Palestinian control at the moment?
    - throw310822 8mo ago
      I have no idea, but it's funny that some people think this is a smart question that will make them score a point. Why would Jews want to live as the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, when that means living under occupation, being subjected to Israeli military law, being powerless against settlers violence and the prepotence of Israel? And what would they do, immigrate there from New York and start a farm, with a pinky promise that they won't turn into settlers and seek to join Israel? And of course it would be risky, when they are so easily associated with the settlers and the occupying power- no point in denying it. Nonetheless, there are entire large Palestinian clans that claim to descend from Jews and retain some of their customs: a famous example is the Makhamra family.
      - mhb 8mo ago
        And what happened to Israelis who wanted to take a stroll through Gaza (prior to October 7, of course)?
        8mo ago