5 ms·

Most people want a lot more out of life than basic necessities.

djeastm 8mo ago
Indeed. Some of us want basic necessities provided to everyone.
Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
UBI does not mean you don't work, nor you can't earn a lot of money. It just means we don't let you starve if you don't work and we stop making you work out of fear of leaving you starve if you don't. I'm a psychiatry resident and developper. I have never been paid for my dev work but have produced quite a lot on my free time (site: w.olicorne.org ). I would do psychiatry pretty much no matter how much I'm paid for it. In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. UBI would free up time and cognitive load of the most productive people I believe. Following a 80/20 kinda rule. Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not *have to* monetize.
- jonahx 8mo ago
  > In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking. Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. > Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not have to monetize. Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question.
  - laserlight 8mo ago
    > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question. It's alright. Those who would like to monetize can. There are others who wouldn't and UBI would utilize that surplus talent, which otherwise had to perform tasks they weren't skilled at to earn a living.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
    > most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. With UBI I wouldn't be surprised if those would be even more productive doing something else they want. And others who couldn't do the CS curiculum even though they would have loved to because they had to find a job quickly would plausibly be at their place instead. I really view UBI as something that puts oil in the society: people have less friction to be at the spot they're better at. People who want to do nothing will not slow us down anymore. And jobs that nobody wants to do would finally be paid by how much they suck instead of how much money your parents had to educate you. > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question I don't really see the issue. We're far from having shortage of ways to make people pay: ads, paywall, soft paywall, begging, rate limits. What's the issue with those? I certainly don't like them as a user and as a member of society but am fine with people doing that. Especially with UBI in place: if the dev is putting a paywall, they have to compete with people that have plausibly much more freedom of time and mind to allocate to another free foss project. So in the end it becomes less profitable to be adversarial against end users.
    - jonahx 8mo ago
      > And others who couldn't do the CS curiculum even though they would have loved to because they had to find a job quickly would plausibly be at their place instead. Unfortunately, also wishful thinking. A particular kind of wishful thinking endemic to naturally highly curious, academic achievers (not a dig, I am one). But -- and if you don't understand this, spending some time teaching at universities makes it abundantly clear -- most of the world is nothing like this. They aren't being held back from their natural passions and curiosities by the demands of living. They would not suddenly flourish under UBI. > With UBI I wouldn't be surprised if those would be even more productive doing something else they want. For the people that do naturally love creating and are good at it, they might "even more productive" in one sense -- creating more stuff that they, personally, value. And personally I'd love to do that, but it doesn't maximize value across society. That's one of the main things money is. It's a constraint forcing the production of consensus value. In a world of infinite resources that ceases to matter, but we're still very far from that. > People who want to do nothing will not slow us down anymore. Who do you think is supporting them? Until we have robots taking care of everyone for free, support is still a cost levied on other humans.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
    > The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking It is obviously an incentive. But I think it's not an effective one and has many morally bad side effects. I highly recommend taking a look at the work of Daniel Pink related to money as an incentive. See The Puzzle Of Motivation (~20min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
  - scbrg 8mo ago
    > Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. Somehow I can imagine that a world where a the brightest minds of a generation didn't spend their prime optimizing ad clicking wouldn't necessarily be a complete disaster.
    - mlrtime 8mo ago
      Optimizing ad clicking is profitable and the thing that would [partially] pay for UBI. That stops happening and money/value stop being created. The market is not 0 sum. It's good to talk about UBI, but people taking it seriously have no idea how to fund it.
      - loglog 8mo ago
        That's right, much of the market is negative sum.
- TechSquidTV 8mo ago
  But they want to was the point.
- aembleton 8mo ago
  > It just means we don't let you starve if you don't work and we stop making you work out of fear of leaving you starve if you don't. Seems inefficient to pay for everyone to have kitchens in their house and pay them cash to get ingredients to cook. Couldn't we just employ some of these people as cooks and have them make meals in a centralised kitchen in every neighbourhood? A bit like the British Restaurant idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
    I don't see the connection with what we were talking about but: - soup kitchen are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_kitchen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_kitchen - community fridges too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge - and historically in france where I'm from, when we started having freezer technology it first appeared in shared houses for the whole village. People would go there once a day to fetch what they needed and would eat it. Can't find english sources but it seems very efficient. A least much more than every one having a fridge. https://france3-regions.franceinfo.fr/pays-de-la-loire/mayenne/un-surgelateur-collectif-au-service-des-habitants-depuis-trois-generations-2950043.html https://france3-regions.franceinfo.fr/pays-de-la-loire/mayen...
- y-curious 8mo ago
  Brother wait til you find out about inflation. Do you make price controls for groceries too?
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
    Don't you think that with UBI some people could flat out refuse to be squeezed by the supermarket owner and decide to make their own grocery association not motivated by greed and so less subject to inflation? I know of several projects like this where people give their own time for free to work in that low price supermarket. It's not even registered as a company but as a public benefit association. With UBI and inflation I have no doubt this kind of thing would pop up and limit inflation.
BudgieInWA 8mo ago
That's why it works, lol. Those already driven by the bet paying off still have their incentives, and those who would love to try something ... can! Because they don't have overdue bills to pay with extra interest.

Indeed. Some of us want basic necessities provided to everyone.

UBI does not mean you don't work, nor you can't earn a lot of money. It just means we don't let you starve if you don't work and we stop making you work out of fear of leaving you starve if you don't. I'm a psychiatry resident and developper. I have never been paid for my dev work but have produced quite a lot on my free time (site: w.olicorne.org ). I would do psychiatry pretty much no matter how much I'm paid for it. In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. UBI would free up time and cognitive load of the most productive people I believe. Following a 80/20 kinda rule. Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not *have to* monetize.

jonahx 8mo ago
> In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking. Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. > Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not have to monetize. Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question.
- laserlight 8mo ago
  > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question. It's alright. Those who would like to monetize can. There are others who wouldn't and UBI would utilize that surplus talent, which otherwise had to perform tasks they weren't skilled at to earn a living.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
  > most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. With UBI I wouldn't be surprised if those would be even more productive doing something else they want. And others who couldn't do the CS curiculum even though they would have loved to because they had to find a job quickly would plausibly be at their place instead. I really view UBI as something that puts oil in the society: people have less friction to be at the spot they're better at. People who want to do nothing will not slow us down anymore. And jobs that nobody wants to do would finally be paid by how much they suck instead of how much money your parents had to educate you. > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question I don't really see the issue. We're far from having shortage of ways to make people pay: ads, paywall, soft paywall, begging, rate limits. What's the issue with those? I certainly don't like them as a user and as a member of society but am fine with people doing that. Especially with UBI in place: if the dev is putting a paywall, they have to compete with people that have plausibly much more freedom of time and mind to allocate to another free foss project. So in the end it becomes less profitable to be adversarial against end users.
  - jonahx 8mo ago
    > And others who couldn't do the CS curiculum even though they would have loved to because they had to find a job quickly would plausibly be at their place instead. Unfortunately, also wishful thinking. A particular kind of wishful thinking endemic to naturally highly curious, academic achievers (not a dig, I am one). But -- and if you don't understand this, spending some time teaching at universities makes it abundantly clear -- most of the world is nothing like this. They aren't being held back from their natural passions and curiosities by the demands of living. They would not suddenly flourish under UBI. > With UBI I wouldn't be surprised if those would be even more productive doing something else they want. For the people that do naturally love creating and are good at it, they might "even more productive" in one sense -- creating more stuff that they, personally, value. And personally I'd love to do that, but it doesn't maximize value across society. That's one of the main things money is. It's a constraint forcing the production of consensus value. In a world of infinite resources that ceases to matter, but we're still very far from that. > People who want to do nothing will not slow us down anymore. Who do you think is supporting them? Until we have robots taking care of everyone for free, support is still a cost levied on other humans.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
  > The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking It is obviously an incentive. But I think it's not an effective one and has many morally bad side effects. I highly recommend taking a look at the work of Daniel Pink related to money as an incentive. See The Puzzle Of Motivation (~20min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
- scbrg 8mo ago
  > Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. Somehow I can imagine that a world where a the brightest minds of a generation didn't spend their prime optimizing ad clicking wouldn't necessarily be a complete disaster.
  - mlrtime 8mo ago
    Optimizing ad clicking is profitable and the thing that would [partially] pay for UBI. That stops happening and money/value stop being created. The market is not 0 sum. It's good to talk about UBI, but people taking it seriously have no idea how to fund it.
    - loglog 8mo ago
      That's right, much of the market is negative sum.
TechSquidTV 8mo ago
But they want to was the point.
aembleton 8mo ago
> It just means we don't let you starve if you don't work and we stop making you work out of fear of leaving you starve if you don't. Seems inefficient to pay for everyone to have kitchens in their house and pay them cash to get ingredients to cook. Couldn't we just employ some of these people as cooks and have them make meals in a centralised kitchen in every neighbourhood? A bit like the British Restaurant idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
  I don't see the connection with what we were talking about but: - soup kitchen are a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_kitchen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_kitchen - community fridges too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge - and historically in france where I'm from, when we started having freezer technology it first appeared in shared houses for the whole village. People would go there once a day to fetch what they needed and would eat it. Can't find english sources but it seems very efficient. A least much more than every one having a fridge. https://france3-regions.franceinfo.fr/pays-de-la-loire/mayenne/un-surgelateur-collectif-au-service-des-habitants-depuis-trois-generations-2950043.html https://france3-regions.franceinfo.fr/pays-de-la-loire/mayen...
y-curious 8mo ago
Brother wait til you find out about inflation. Do you make price controls for groceries too?
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 8mo ago
  Don't you think that with UBI some people could flat out refuse to be squeezed by the supermarket owner and decide to make their own grocery association not motivated by greed and so less subject to inflation? I know of several projects like this where people give their own time for free to work in that low price supermarket. It's not even registered as a company but as a public benefit association. With UBI and inflation I have no doubt this kind of thing would pop up and limit inflation.

BudgieInWA 8mo ago

That's why it works, lol. Those already driven by the bet paying off still have their incentives, and those who would love to try something ... can! Because they don't have overdue bills to pay with extra interest.