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This is a scary argument. Should we also ban car emissions/safety testing, because Volvo's competitors might discern something from the results? Should we also

by a2128 8mo ago

This is a scary argument. Should we also ban car emissions/safety testing, because Volvo's competitors might discern something from the results? Should we also stop FCC certification because competitors might glean information out of a device's radio characteristics? The local residents, if not the public at large, should have a right to know. If not, then it should go both ways and grocery stores shouldn't be allowed to use tracking because my personal enemies might discern something from the milk brand I'm buying

bparsons 8mo ago
Don't give them any ideas
jjkaczor 8mo ago
Naw - corps will just get engineers to fudge the emissions numbers, then they have someone low-level and easy to blame and remove from the organization... VW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
It’s definitely a result of the money at play, which is unprecedented in scale and (imo) speculation. But this is, in theory, why we have laws: to fight power imbalances, and money is of course power. Tough for me to be optimistic about law and order right now though, especially when it comes to the president’s biggest donors and the vice president’s handlers.
- mistrial9 8mo ago
  the building of the American Railroads were the largest capital endeavor in known history IIR. .. and Stanford was in the center of that, too
  - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
    Ah my bad. But also, if we’re comparing buildout of infrastructure to the construction of the American Railroad system, especially in the context of lawbreaking and general immoral and unethical behavior… Point kind of proven, yeah? One more argument for the “return to the gilded age” debates. Edit: you’re speaking kind of authoritatively on the subject though. Care to share some figures? The AI bubble is definitely measured in trillions in 2026 USD. Was the railroad buildout trillions of dollars?
    - hobs 8mo ago
      Depends on when you stop calculating, and how you exactly value the work By 1900 the united states had 215 thousand miles of railroads https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-history-primary-source-timeline/rise-of-industrial-america-1876-1900/railroads-in-late-19th-century/ https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-histor... Depend on you value land mileage and work this could easily be north of 1T modern dollars.
      - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
        Land value underneath railroad tracks is an interesting subject. Most land value is reasonably calculated by width * length, and maybe some airspace rights. And that makes sense to our human brains, because we can look at a parcel of land and acknowledge it might be worth $10^x for some x given inflation. But railroads kind of fail with this because you might have a landowner who prices the edge of their parcel at $1,000,000,000,000 because they know you need that exact piece of land for your railroad, and if the railroad is super long you might run into 10 of these maniacs. Meanwhile the vast majority of your line might be worth less than any adjacent farmland, square foot by square foot, especially if it’s rocky or unstable etc. Having a continuous line of land for many miles also has its own intrinsic value, much more than owning any particular segment (especially as it allows you to build a railroad hah). Anyway, suffice to say, I don’t think “land value underneath railroads from the 18th century” is something that’s easily estimated.
    - tmp10423288442 8mo ago
      As a percentage of GDP investments in the railroad buildout in the US was comparable or slightly higher than AI-related investments. But they are on the same order of magnitude, which says a lot about the scale of AI. > AI infrastructure has risen by $400 billion since 2022. A notable chunk of this spending has been focused on information processing equipment, which spiked at a 39% annualized rate in the first half of 2025. Harvard economist Jason Furman commented that investment in information processing equipment & software is equivalent to only 4% of US GDP, but was responsible for 92% of GDP growth in the first half of 2025. If you exclude these categories, the US economy grew at only a 0.1% annual rate in the first half. https://www.cadtm.org/The-AI-bubble-and-the-US-economy?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.cadtm.org/The-AI-bubble-and-the-US-economy?utm_s...
infecto 8mo ago
What is always left unclear in these anti data center articles is how much the public is left in the dark? It’s not out of the normal for large developments to be kept under NDA until hitting a threshold of certainty, usually that does not mean the residents are left out of voicing their opinions before ground breaks.
- cmxch 8mo ago
  What kind of say do the residents have when it’s nearly a done deal? Unless the residents have a strong enough chance to veto, they’re just speaking into the void as far as the company is concerned.
  - infecto 8mo ago
    Typically constituents don’t have any ability to veto. I imagine there are some cases in CA, thinking of that amusing article about an ice cream shop getting blocked by another ice cream shop. It’s usually an indirect vote with your voice. To be frank, people don’t have that much of a role in what business gets built if it aligns with the states economic goals and zoning is not being critically changed. I think the bigger discussion is if resources are going to be constrained can we make sure the use is being properly charged for resource buildout. It’s the same problem with building sports arenas or sweetheart tax deals for manufacturing plants, they often don’t pan out.
- state_less 8mo ago
  Obviously data center bidders would prefer their activity to be kept in the dark, but does that make for good outcomes for anyone else except the bidders. First, the community would like to weigh in on whether they want a data center or not, often they don't. Then if they do, they'd rather have a bidding war than some NDA backroom deal with a single entity. All this does is serve Big Tech and Big Capital, and they don't need to run on easy mode, sponging off the small guy at this stage.
  - infecto 8mo ago
    You make this sound like a conspiracy. This is normal practice in economic development, check off boxes until announcing to the public. The public rarely has much power in voicing their opinion but data centers are the current evil entity.
tzs 8mo ago
> Should we also ban car emissions/safety testing, because Volvo's competitors might discern something from the results? Should we also stop FCC certification because competitors might glean information out of a device's radio characteristics? In the US neither of those are generally made public per se. They are made public when the thing actually passes testing or certification.

by a2128 8mo ago

bparsons 8mo ago

Don't give them any ideas

jjkaczor 8mo ago

Naw - corps will just get engineers to fudge the emissions numbers, then they have someone low-level and easy to blame and remove from the organization... VW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

datsci_est_2015 8mo ago

It’s definitely a result of the money at play, which is unprecedented in scale and (imo) speculation. But this is, in theory, why we have laws: to fight power imbalances, and money is of course power. Tough for me to be optimistic about law and order right now though, especially when it comes to the president’s biggest donors and the vice president’s handlers.

mistrial9 8mo ago
the building of the American Railroads were the largest capital endeavor in known history IIR. .. and Stanford was in the center of that, too
- datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
  Ah my bad. But also, if we’re comparing buildout of infrastructure to the construction of the American Railroad system, especially in the context of lawbreaking and general immoral and unethical behavior… Point kind of proven, yeah? One more argument for the “return to the gilded age” debates. Edit: you’re speaking kind of authoritatively on the subject though. Care to share some figures? The AI bubble is definitely measured in trillions in 2026 USD. Was the railroad buildout trillions of dollars?
  - hobs 8mo ago
    Depends on when you stop calculating, and how you exactly value the work By 1900 the united states had 215 thousand miles of railroads https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-history-primary-source-timeline/rise-of-industrial-america-1876-1900/railroads-in-late-19th-century/ https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-histor... Depend on you value land mileage and work this could easily be north of 1T modern dollars.
    - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
      Land value underneath railroad tracks is an interesting subject. Most land value is reasonably calculated by width * length, and maybe some airspace rights. And that makes sense to our human brains, because we can look at a parcel of land and acknowledge it might be worth $10^x for some x given inflation. But railroads kind of fail with this because you might have a landowner who prices the edge of their parcel at $1,000,000,000,000 because they know you need that exact piece of land for your railroad, and if the railroad is super long you might run into 10 of these maniacs. Meanwhile the vast majority of your line might be worth less than any adjacent farmland, square foot by square foot, especially if it’s rocky or unstable etc. Having a continuous line of land for many miles also has its own intrinsic value, much more than owning any particular segment (especially as it allows you to build a railroad hah). Anyway, suffice to say, I don’t think “land value underneath railroads from the 18th century” is something that’s easily estimated.
  - tmp10423288442 8mo ago
    As a percentage of GDP investments in the railroad buildout in the US was comparable or slightly higher than AI-related investments. But they are on the same order of magnitude, which says a lot about the scale of AI. > AI infrastructure has risen by $400 billion since 2022. A notable chunk of this spending has been focused on information processing equipment, which spiked at a 39% annualized rate in the first half of 2025. Harvard economist Jason Furman commented that investment in information processing equipment & software is equivalent to only 4% of US GDP, but was responsible for 92% of GDP growth in the first half of 2025. If you exclude these categories, the US economy grew at only a 0.1% annual rate in the first half. https://www.cadtm.org/The-AI-bubble-and-the-US-economy?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.cadtm.org/The-AI-bubble-and-the-US-economy?utm_s...

infecto 8mo ago

What is always left unclear in these anti data center articles is how much the public is left in the dark? It’s not out of the normal for large developments to be kept under NDA until hitting a threshold of certainty, usually that does not mean the residents are left out of voicing their opinions before ground breaks.

cmxch 8mo ago
What kind of say do the residents have when it’s nearly a done deal? Unless the residents have a strong enough chance to veto, they’re just speaking into the void as far as the company is concerned.
- infecto 8mo ago
  Typically constituents don’t have any ability to veto. I imagine there are some cases in CA, thinking of that amusing article about an ice cream shop getting blocked by another ice cream shop. It’s usually an indirect vote with your voice. To be frank, people don’t have that much of a role in what business gets built if it aligns with the states economic goals and zoning is not being critically changed. I think the bigger discussion is if resources are going to be constrained can we make sure the use is being properly charged for resource buildout. It’s the same problem with building sports arenas or sweetheart tax deals for manufacturing plants, they often don’t pan out.
state_less 8mo ago
Obviously data center bidders would prefer their activity to be kept in the dark, but does that make for good outcomes for anyone else except the bidders. First, the community would like to weigh in on whether they want a data center or not, often they don't. Then if they do, they'd rather have a bidding war than some NDA backroom deal with a single entity. All this does is serve Big Tech and Big Capital, and they don't need to run on easy mode, sponging off the small guy at this stage.
- infecto 8mo ago
  You make this sound like a conspiracy. This is normal practice in economic development, check off boxes until announcing to the public. The public rarely has much power in voicing their opinion but data centers are the current evil entity.

tzs 8mo ago

> Should we also ban car emissions/safety testing, because Volvo's competitors might discern something from the results? Should we also stop FCC certification because competitors might glean information out of a device's radio characteristics? In the US neither of those are generally made public per se. They are made public when the thing actually passes testing or certification.