4 ms·

(1) The answer is simple: Stop the genocide in Gaza by any means necessary. The US has the power to do that with its proxy Israel. (2) Reading that I wonder if

by mfru 8mo ago

(1) The answer is simple: Stop the genocide in Gaza by any means necessary. The US has the power to do that with its proxy Israel. (2) Reading that I wonder if you also supported violent dismissals of Vietnam war protests

adastra22 8mo ago
Not what I was asking about. What should Israel have done in response to Oct 7th? What would be the downstream effects? What should a country do when a neighbor invades and massacres entire towns, live-streaming the violent deaths and rapes for the world to see? What is the correct response to this? You have clearly not thought through the game theory and repercussions of what you are suggesting. Like many college protesters, you would do well to understand the complexity of the mechanics of the real world, and understand that reality ain’t rainbows and butterflies. I have no clue how you drew the Vietnam war protest thing from what I wrote.
- watwut 8mo ago
  First, genocide is not necessary response. Second, Israel hard right was working on that and moving toward genocide for years.
  - solumunus 8mo ago
    So I guess no one is actually going to try and answer the question?
    - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
      I think that a better response would have been much, much more targeted. Strategically, Israel have put themselves in a much worse position vis a vis the rest of the world (and importantly the US) by the indiscriminate leveling of Gaza. So it would have been much more like a police action than a war. Maybe take lessons (god I can't believe I'm saying this) from how the British responded to the nationalist terrorism/freedom fighters in Northern Ireland?
      - adastra22 8mo ago
        Targeted urban warfare is exactly what happened in Gaza, which had one of the LOWEST civilian death rates for urban warfare in this century. It was 1/4 that rate of the US army in fallujah for example. Talk of “genocide” and “indiscriminate leveling of Gaza” indicates to me that you didn’t really understand the situation and probably get your news from propaganda sources - which, unfortunately, include nearly all media sources in this conflict. Northern Ireland was a gang/rebel group in occupied territory. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and Israel had no boots on the ground on Oct 6th. The situations are not in any way comparable.
        disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
        > which had one of the LOWEST civilian death rates for urban warfare in this century Can you provide some evidence for this statement? EDIT: removed everything except this statement, as I feel it will lead to less productive conversation.
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  What should Palestine have done in response to Oct 6th?
  - mhb 8mo ago
    Maybe you should be asking what it should have done on September 13, 2000.
wqaatwt 8mo ago
> by any means necessary Not that carpet bombing a densely populated city wasn’t extremely horrible were there any better was to destroy or at least massively weaken Hamas? For that matter Hamas could have stopped the Israeli atrocities any time they wanted, they chose not to.
- JasonADrury 8mo ago
  > were there any better was to destroy or at least massively weaken Hamas? Perhaps not pursuing policies that create the conditions for Hamas to thrive in the first place?
  - ZeroGravitas 8mo ago
    Also avoiding literally supporting Hamas would help weaken Hamas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
    - dlubarov 8mo ago
      Wikipedia has become a very poor source for anything Israel-related. The basis of the article is just - Israel supported a non-violent predecessor org, which is pretty irrelevant to Hamas. - Israel allowed Qatari aid to fund some Gaza infrastructure projects, salaries for civil servants, etc. Neither is actually supporting Hamas, unless we say that allowing food to enter Gaza is also supporting Hamas.
  - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
    > Perhaps not pursuing policies that create the conditions for Hamas to thrive in the first place? That sounds pretty easy when you're not involved, but things on the ground are rarely that simple. Much of Israeli society is convinced (somewhat accurately) that the Palestinians hate them and want them dead, as much of Palestinian society is convinced of the same (again, somewhat accurately). I don't know how you get both sides to climb down from this, or does it just end with genocide (of one side or the other). Like, I'm from Ireland and the north of the island was engulfed in violence for the first half of my life (not to a Gaza standard but bad). That only got resolved because a superpower (the US) intervened to help mediate (and help the side that considered themselves Irish). I would imagine that I might have been very angry at this if I were a member of the other side (the side that considers themselves British), but ultimately it worked out pretty well (modulo Brexit and potential other landmines). But it's not over, the groups are still really segregated and people just don't talk about it. The Israel Palestine situation is much, much worse and I honestly don't see any superpower being willing or able to mediate this situation. So yeah, it would be great if everyone could just sing kumbaya, but I don't see how we get there from here.

by mfru 8mo ago

adastra22 8mo ago

Not what I was asking about. What should Israel have done in response to Oct 7th? What would be the downstream effects? What should a country do when a neighbor invades and massacres entire towns, live-streaming the violent deaths and rapes for the world to see? What is the correct response to this? You have clearly not thought through the game theory and repercussions of what you are suggesting. Like many college protesters, you would do well to understand the complexity of the mechanics of the real world, and understand that reality ain’t rainbows and butterflies. I have no clue how you drew the Vietnam war protest thing from what I wrote.

watwut 8mo ago
First, genocide is not necessary response. Second, Israel hard right was working on that and moving toward genocide for years.
- solumunus 8mo ago
  So I guess no one is actually going to try and answer the question?
  - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
    I think that a better response would have been much, much more targeted. Strategically, Israel have put themselves in a much worse position vis a vis the rest of the world (and importantly the US) by the indiscriminate leveling of Gaza. So it would have been much more like a police action than a war. Maybe take lessons (god I can't believe I'm saying this) from how the British responded to the nationalist terrorism/freedom fighters in Northern Ireland?
    - adastra22 8mo ago
      Targeted urban warfare is exactly what happened in Gaza, which had one of the LOWEST civilian death rates for urban warfare in this century. It was 1/4 that rate of the US army in fallujah for example. Talk of “genocide” and “indiscriminate leveling of Gaza” indicates to me that you didn’t really understand the situation and probably get your news from propaganda sources - which, unfortunately, include nearly all media sources in this conflict. Northern Ireland was a gang/rebel group in occupied territory. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and Israel had no boots on the ground on Oct 6th. The situations are not in any way comparable.
      - disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
        > which had one of the LOWEST civilian death rates for urban warfare in this century Can you provide some evidence for this statement? EDIT: removed everything except this statement, as I feel it will lead to less productive conversation.
direwolf20 8mo ago
What should Palestine have done in response to Oct 6th?
- mhb 8mo ago
  Maybe you should be asking what it should have done on September 13, 2000.

wqaatwt 8mo ago

> by any means necessary Not that carpet bombing a densely populated city wasn’t extremely horrible were there any better was to destroy or at least massively weaken Hamas? For that matter Hamas could have stopped the Israeli atrocities any time they wanted, they chose not to.

JasonADrury 8mo ago
> were there any better was to destroy or at least massively weaken Hamas? Perhaps not pursuing policies that create the conditions for Hamas to thrive in the first place?
- ZeroGravitas 8mo ago
  Also avoiding literally supporting Hamas would help weaken Hamas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
  - dlubarov 8mo ago
    Wikipedia has become a very poor source for anything Israel-related. The basis of the article is just - Israel supported a non-violent predecessor org, which is pretty irrelevant to Hamas. - Israel allowed Qatari aid to fund some Gaza infrastructure projects, salaries for civil servants, etc. Neither is actually supporting Hamas, unless we say that allowing food to enter Gaza is also supporting Hamas.
- disgruntledphd2 8mo ago
  > Perhaps not pursuing policies that create the conditions for Hamas to thrive in the first place? That sounds pretty easy when you're not involved, but things on the ground are rarely that simple. Much of Israeli society is convinced (somewhat accurately) that the Palestinians hate them and want them dead, as much of Palestinian society is convinced of the same (again, somewhat accurately). I don't know how you get both sides to climb down from this, or does it just end with genocide (of one side or the other). Like, I'm from Ireland and the north of the island was engulfed in violence for the first half of my life (not to a Gaza standard but bad). That only got resolved because a superpower (the US) intervened to help mediate (and help the side that considered themselves Irish). I would imagine that I might have been very angry at this if I were a member of the other side (the side that considers themselves British), but ultimately it worked out pretty well (modulo Brexit and potential other landmines). But it's not over, the groups are still really segregated and people just don't talk about it. The Israel Palestine situation is much, much worse and I honestly don't see any superpower being willing or able to mediate this situation. So yeah, it would be great if everyone could just sing kumbaya, but I don't see how we get there from here.