5 ms·

"Why would anyone be opposed to deporting criminals" is verbatim what I've read from conservative commenters. That isn't the issue being discussed. This is ill

"Why would anyone be opposed to deporting criminals" is verbatim what I've read from conservative commenters. That isn't the issue being discussed. This is illustrating that armed, masked goons as a political weapon is a pandora's box that will get turned against everyone, regardless of status. Some people just don't care about the violence in Minnesota because it isn't happening to them.

sejje 9mo ago
[flagged]
- qeternity 9mo ago
  > In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen, to the point that you must just be trolling. Disobeying law enforcement is not a death sentence. It is often not even illegal. Just because LEO shouts "I am giving you a lawful order" does not in fact make it a lawful order. And this certainly is not happening in most other countries. The desire to be part of the Trump Tribe has made people forget what actually made America great.
  - crawfordcomeaux 9mo ago
    Enslavement, genocide, domination, and extraction made it great. For those who forgot. What we're watching is the collapse of such an unsustainable approach.
  - sejje 9mo ago
    If it's not a lawful order, you fight that in court. It's almost a free pass to get out of whatever you did. But what she was given was a lawful order. That's the one I'm talking about. I'm not a trump voter.
    - mekdoonggi 9mo ago
      How did you determine "what she was given was a lawful order" without a trial?
      - sejje 9mo ago
        Because I have at least a bare minimum understanding of what a lawful command is. Law enforcement can order you out of your vehicle, and you must comply.
        sneak 9mo ago
        ICE aren’t law enforcement and can’t legally effect traffic stops. Their orders to Good were not lawful as they had no PC related to immigration violations.
        sejje 9mo ago
        ICE aren't law enforcement? What do you think they are? What do you think the E stands for?
        sneak 9mo ago
        They’re customs enforcement. That’s distinct legally and practically from law enforcement. They have no legal right to effect traffic stops, for example. They can search people only insofar as the border proximity exemption is in effect; I would assume Minneapolis is outside of this range.
    - UncleMeat 9mo ago
      Can you show me how specifically you fight it in court when the person abusing you is a federal officer? Bivens is basically dead.
      - sejje 9mo ago
        Well, you can see the alternative. Get shot in the street and get a lot of twitter posts.
- datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
  We’re not sure what your point is. “Things of a similar nature have happened in the past” is not a particularly strong argument. > In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is naked bootlicking. You only support it because you view it as “your team” or “your tribe” and do not feel threatened by it. Tables turn in time. Maybe you are not old or wise or well-read enough to recognize that.
  - sejje 9mo ago
    I don't view law enforcement as my team. But I do want the laws enforced.
    - simoncion 9mo ago
      > The violence in Minnesota--that is, law enforcement killing people who are not obeying them--is nothing new. Happens in every state every day. Sure, agreed. > ICE deporting people isn't new, either. Yeah, agreed. > What's new is the folks trying to stop federal agents from doing their jobs... Nah. Cops of all flavors have been lying (even under oath) about how they beat the shit out of (or assaulted with chemical weapons (or killed)) someone because "I was afraid for my life", "I was being obstructed during the discharge of my lawful duties", and similar for ages. That's nothing new. What is probably new is the scale of the deployments of killer cops. What's definitely new is the extent of the media coverage of the obviously-illegal-but-roughly-noone-will-be-punished actions of many of those cops. That these cops are injuring folks, stealing and breaking their property, kidnapping folks, and killing folks is one huge fucked-up thing. The other huge fucked-up thing is that approximately noone will ask "So, why aren't these cops immediately in jail awaiting trial? Why don't the courts think this is obviously illegal? What has gone wrong here?". Instead, this will generally be pinned on either the Trump Administration, or Trump personally... so once he's out of office, folks will go "Job's done!" and nothing will change to fix the underlying long-standing problem. [0] [0] Do carefully note: I'm absolutely not saying that the Trump Administration (or perhaps Trump, himself) is blameless. They absolutely are responsible for the flood of poorly-trained ICE officers who pretty clearly have orders to engage in domestic terrorism. I'm pointing out that these domestic terrorists absolutely should be immediately sent to jail for what they've done. Trump and the Trump Administration have pretty much nothing to do with the fact that USian cops can kidnap, brutalize, steal, and murder with almost complete impunity... that's a long-standing problem.
- crawfordcomeaux 9mo ago
  Normalizing state-sanctioned extra-judicial murder along with a message of compliance? Maybe go find videos of where compliance got people killed because the fact is the slave catchers enjoy brutality and murder.
  - sejje 9mo ago
    I'm not normalizing it, it's already normalized. We have accepted this kind of policing forever. Nothing in Minnesota has changed the game, except masks maybe, since they're being doxxed.
    - ModernMech 9mo ago
      We have not accepted anything. Hence the protests. Maybe you have accepted it but you don’t speak for everyone.
      - sejje 9mo ago
        No, that's the thing. We accepted for a long time. Literally not one thing about any of this is new, except the politicians and reporters decided we need to focus on Minneapolis this month. The same thing has been going on the same way for decades.
        ModernMech 9mo ago
        It not being new doesn't mean it's been accepted though. Acceptance implies consent. Protest (also not new) is evidence of non consent.
    - goatlover 9mo ago
      Not since George Floyd and certainly not with masks.
      - sejje 9mo ago
        Why are they wearing masks?
- sowbug 9mo ago
  In the US, the 8th Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, which courts have interpreted again and again as requiring that punishment be proportionate to the conduct. Weems v. United States (1910), for example, struck down a 15-year hard-labor sentence for a man who engaged in criminal fraud. Do you think Alex Pretti or Renee Good deserved 15 years of hard labor for disobeying ICE? How about just five years? Because what actually happened was they were executed on the spot. There is no FAFO exception in the US Constitution.
  - sejje 9mo ago
    Cruel and unusual punishment is about sentencing, after a trial. These folks didn't go through a trial. No, I don't think either person deserved fifteen years of hard labor, or five years. What actually happened is not that they were executed on the spot, no.
    - sowbug 9mo ago
      It's not a particularly strong argument that these agents didn't violate the 8th amendment because they violated the 6th amendment right to trial.
      - sejje 9mo ago
        You mean "you're right, saying the victim was cruelly and unusually punished isn't a good argument here." You've just presented a new argument. Many, many people are killed by LEO each year; how many are considered 6th amendment violations? (None. LEO is not out there "administering judgement", they are responding to deadly-force encounters, guns, etc)
    - lovich 9mo ago
      Oh, just spontaneously died then? You know if you play the video backwards it shows ICE applying lifesaving bullet removal techniques on Mr. Pretti and Mrs. Good
      - sejje 9mo ago
gadders 9mo ago
Obama managed to deport more illegal immigrants than Trump. The difference is the local cities and states were working with ICE, rather than weaponising it to try and get a Democrat president. Obama even gave Tom Homan a medal for his work.
- seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
  You forget that Obama wasn’t an idiot and did everything above board. Sanctuary cities existed back then, federal agents still enforced immigration rules just without Gestapo-like sh*t stirring. Trump wanted to provoke Minneapolis with aggressive highly visible tactics, and he got what he wanted.
  - gadders 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - ModernMech 9mo ago
      So you don’t think it has anything to do with the fact the federal government murdered two people in cold blood for all to see?
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        FWIW they were murdered in hot blood. A cold–blood murder is one where you plan the murder at home and execute it. A hot–blood murder is one where you kill someone because you are enraged in the moment, which is what happened here twice.
      - gadders 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        tastyface 9mo ago
        https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2026/01/26/ice-detained-us-citizens-minnesota-arrests/88304880007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2026/01/26/ice... "The despondent faces and screaming, wailing and pleading from these men, women and children in cells will forever haunt me. But perhaps more haunting still was the sound of agents nearby laughing." Yes, very not Nazi. And the press is not the reason people in Minneapolis are livid and putting their lives on the line, out in the freezing cold. Instead of getting angrier and angrier as "useful idiots" continue to do the same all across the country and in ever greater numbers, maybe take the chance to revisit your assumptions and pull yourself out of whatever dark propaganda pit you're in.
sowbug 9mo ago
Almost every major US criminal constitutional rights case started with an actual criminal, or at least someone unsavory. Miranda was a rapist. Gideon of Gideon v. Wainwright was a burglar. Brady of Brady v. Maryland was a robber and possibly a murderer. These cases helped form the foundation of what due process actually means in the United States. But contemporary discussion surely included a lot of commentary like "Why would anyone be opposed to prosecuting murders, rapists, and violent criminals?" And that commentary was just as irrelevant then as it is now. It's not about whether the US deports criminals. It's about how we go about doing it.

sejje 9mo ago

[flagged]

qeternity 9mo ago
> In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen, to the point that you must just be trolling. Disobeying law enforcement is not a death sentence. It is often not even illegal. Just because LEO shouts "I am giving you a lawful order" does not in fact make it a lawful order. And this certainly is not happening in most other countries. The desire to be part of the Trump Tribe has made people forget what actually made America great.
- crawfordcomeaux 9mo ago
  Enslavement, genocide, domination, and extraction made it great. For those who forgot. What we're watching is the collapse of such an unsustainable approach.
- sejje 9mo ago
  If it's not a lawful order, you fight that in court. It's almost a free pass to get out of whatever you did. But what she was given was a lawful order. That's the one I'm talking about. I'm not a trump voter.
  - mekdoonggi 9mo ago
    How did you determine "what she was given was a lawful order" without a trial?
    - sejje 9mo ago
      Because I have at least a bare minimum understanding of what a lawful command is. Law enforcement can order you out of your vehicle, and you must comply.
      - sneak 9mo ago
        ICE aren’t law enforcement and can’t legally effect traffic stops. Their orders to Good were not lawful as they had no PC related to immigration violations.
        sejje 9mo ago
        ICE aren't law enforcement? What do you think they are? What do you think the E stands for?
        sneak 9mo ago
        They’re customs enforcement. That’s distinct legally and practically from law enforcement. They have no legal right to effect traffic stops, for example. They can search people only insofar as the border proximity exemption is in effect; I would assume Minneapolis is outside of this range.
  - UncleMeat 9mo ago
    Can you show me how specifically you fight it in court when the person abusing you is a federal officer? Bivens is basically dead.
    - sejje 9mo ago
      Well, you can see the alternative. Get shot in the street and get a lot of twitter posts.
datsci_est_2015 9mo ago
We’re not sure what your point is. “Things of a similar nature have happened in the past” is not a particularly strong argument. > In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is naked bootlicking. You only support it because you view it as “your team” or “your tribe” and do not feel threatened by it. Tables turn in time. Maybe you are not old or wise or well-read enough to recognize that.
- sejje 9mo ago
  I don't view law enforcement as my team. But I do want the laws enforced.
  - simoncion 9mo ago
    > The violence in Minnesota--that is, law enforcement killing people who are not obeying them--is nothing new. Happens in every state every day. Sure, agreed. > ICE deporting people isn't new, either. Yeah, agreed. > What's new is the folks trying to stop federal agents from doing their jobs... Nah. Cops of all flavors have been lying (even under oath) about how they beat the shit out of (or assaulted with chemical weapons (or killed)) someone because "I was afraid for my life", "I was being obstructed during the discharge of my lawful duties", and similar for ages. That's nothing new. What is probably new is the scale of the deployments of killer cops. What's definitely new is the extent of the media coverage of the obviously-illegal-but-roughly-noone-will-be-punished actions of many of those cops. That these cops are injuring folks, stealing and breaking their property, kidnapping folks, and killing folks is one huge fucked-up thing. The other huge fucked-up thing is that approximately noone will ask "So, why aren't these cops immediately in jail awaiting trial? Why don't the courts think this is obviously illegal? What has gone wrong here?". Instead, this will generally be pinned on either the Trump Administration, or Trump personally... so once he's out of office, folks will go "Job's done!" and nothing will change to fix the underlying long-standing problem. [0] [0] Do carefully note: I'm absolutely not saying that the Trump Administration (or perhaps Trump, himself) is blameless. They absolutely are responsible for the flood of poorly-trained ICE officers who pretty clearly have orders to engage in domestic terrorism. I'm pointing out that these domestic terrorists absolutely should be immediately sent to jail for what they've done. Trump and the Trump Administration have pretty much nothing to do with the fact that USian cops can kidnap, brutalize, steal, and murder with almost complete impunity... that's a long-standing problem.
crawfordcomeaux 9mo ago
Normalizing state-sanctioned extra-judicial murder along with a message of compliance? Maybe go find videos of where compliance got people killed because the fact is the slave catchers enjoy brutality and murder.
- sejje 9mo ago
  I'm not normalizing it, it's already normalized. We have accepted this kind of policing forever. Nothing in Minnesota has changed the game, except masks maybe, since they're being doxxed.
  - ModernMech 9mo ago
    We have not accepted anything. Hence the protests. Maybe you have accepted it but you don’t speak for everyone.
    - sejje 9mo ago
      No, that's the thing. We accepted for a long time. Literally not one thing about any of this is new, except the politicians and reporters decided we need to focus on Minneapolis this month. The same thing has been going on the same way for decades.
      - ModernMech 9mo ago
        It not being new doesn't mean it's been accepted though. Acceptance implies consent. Protest (also not new) is evidence of non consent.
  - goatlover 9mo ago
    Not since George Floyd and certainly not with masks.
    - sejje 9mo ago
      Why are they wearing masks?
sowbug 9mo ago
In the US, the 8th Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, which courts have interpreted again and again as requiring that punishment be proportionate to the conduct. Weems v. United States (1910), for example, struck down a 15-year hard-labor sentence for a man who engaged in criminal fraud. Do you think Alex Pretti or Renee Good deserved 15 years of hard labor for disobeying ICE? How about just five years? Because what actually happened was they were executed on the spot. There is no FAFO exception in the US Constitution.
- sejje 9mo ago
  Cruel and unusual punishment is about sentencing, after a trial. These folks didn't go through a trial. No, I don't think either person deserved fifteen years of hard labor, or five years. What actually happened is not that they were executed on the spot, no.
  - sowbug 9mo ago
    It's not a particularly strong argument that these agents didn't violate the 8th amendment because they violated the 6th amendment right to trial.
    - sejje 9mo ago
      You mean "you're right, saying the victim was cruelly and unusually punished isn't a good argument here." You've just presented a new argument. Many, many people are killed by LEO each year; how many are considered 6th amendment violations? (None. LEO is not out there "administering judgement", they are responding to deadly-force encounters, guns, etc)
  - lovich 9mo ago
    Oh, just spontaneously died then? You know if you play the video backwards it shows ICE applying lifesaving bullet removal techniques on Mr. Pretti and Mrs. Good
    - sejje 9mo ago

gadders 9mo ago

Obama managed to deport more illegal immigrants than Trump. The difference is the local cities and states were working with ICE, rather than weaponising it to try and get a Democrat president. Obama even gave Tom Homan a medal for his work.

seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
You forget that Obama wasn’t an idiot and did everything above board. Sanctuary cities existed back then, federal agents still enforced immigration rules just without Gestapo-like sh*t stirring. Trump wanted to provoke Minneapolis with aggressive highly visible tactics, and he got what he wanted.
- gadders 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ModernMech 9mo ago
    So you don’t think it has anything to do with the fact the federal government murdered two people in cold blood for all to see?
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      FWIW they were murdered in hot blood. A cold–blood murder is one where you plan the murder at home and execute it. A hot–blood murder is one where you kill someone because you are enraged in the moment, which is what happened here twice.
    - gadders 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - tastyface 9mo ago
        https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2026/01/26/ice-detained-us-citizens-minnesota-arrests/88304880007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2026/01/26/ice... "The despondent faces and screaming, wailing and pleading from these men, women and children in cells will forever haunt me. But perhaps more haunting still was the sound of agents nearby laughing." Yes, very not Nazi. And the press is not the reason people in Minneapolis are livid and putting their lives on the line, out in the freezing cold. Instead of getting angrier and angrier as "useful idiots" continue to do the same all across the country and in ever greater numbers, maybe take the chance to revisit your assumptions and pull yourself out of whatever dark propaganda pit you're in.

sowbug 9mo ago

Almost every major US criminal constitutional rights case started with an actual criminal, or at least someone unsavory. Miranda was a rapist. Gideon of Gideon v. Wainwright was a burglar. Brady of Brady v. Maryland was a robber and possibly a murderer. These cases helped form the foundation of what due process actually means in the United States. But contemporary discussion surely included a lot of commentary like "Why would anyone be opposed to prosecuting murders, rapists, and violent criminals?" And that commentary was just as irrelevant then as it is now. It's not about whether the US deports criminals. It's about how we go about doing it.