3 ms·

I wonder how many actual terrorists they pick up for saying "I'm here for terrorism"

rusk 8mo ago
Believe it or not it’s a question on the pre-clearance form for travel to the US: ”are you or have you ever been a member of a terrorist organisation” - I always wondered what the rationale for that was
- wongarsu 8mo ago
  It's easier to deport people for lying on their immigration form than for having been a member of a terrorist organization
  - kozziollek 8mo ago
    But to prove lying you would have to prove being a terrorist anyway...
    - alpinisme 8mo ago
      No, being a member of a “terrorist organization” and the government allows itself latitude in defining that. It’s much easier to associate someone with an organization than to show personal acts of terrorism.
      - fc417fc802 8mo ago
        Right but to demonstrate that you lied about X they have to demonstrate X. So by the time you're deporting someone for the lie you could just as easily have deported them for the thing itself.
        pixl97 8mo ago
        You're making assumptions the thing they lied about and the thing they are being deported for are the same, and quite often the thing you're actually being deported for is not a reason to deport anyone at all. You come to the US and make a social media post saying Trump is a big fat dummy head. You get deported for lying about being in a terrorist organization.
        pousada 8mo ago
        Is that actually a realistic example? I’m having trouble following what’s happening in the US
        pixl97 8mo ago
        100%. This pattern of government behavior is everywhere. One common one is the yellow sheet (form 4473) for buying a firearm in the US. Here is an example of a question > “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” No matter the state law, federal law says it's illegal. So, what happens. At some point you buy a gun in Colorado. Then lets say you get on the news and talk about legalization, or you talk about anything that catches social media popularity and someone in the government doesn't approve of. Well, you better not have any record of a marijuana purchase anywhere, or pictures of you doing it because you've just committed a federal crime and the ATF/FBI can kick down your door as they please.
        pousada 8mo ago
        I see what you mean. But is insulting the president evidence of being in a “terrorist organisation” ? I thought free speech was the one principle that is untouchable in the US
        Chris2048 8mo ago
        Having formerly been a member of a terrorist group is different from currently being in one - it may not be illegal, but lying about it is a deportable offence.
        martinflack 8mo ago
        But the method of due process may be different, and the standard of proof to meet may be different. Revoking a visa is easier for the executive branch to accomplish.
    - direwolf20 8mo ago
      Member of a terrorist organization. Did you protest for Palestine action? Then you're a member of a terrorist organization, and they don't have to prove you did any terrorism or planned any terrorism. It's a form of thoughtcrime.
- mschuster91 8mo ago
  > I always wondered what the rationale for that was One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. An easy way to keep communists out of the country. And we've seen how easy it is to expand that list with "antifa" groups just recently, with antifa groups in Germany having to deal with their banks closing their accounts because the banks were afraid of getting hit with retaliation in their US business.
- Scoundreller 8mo ago
  I liked the “have you been in contact with someone with Ebola” questions the kiosk used to ask people entering Canada. I’m like, uhhhh, I dunno, maybe? A little late to inform me that I was supposed to be asking/testing everyone.
  - fc417fc802 8mo ago
    If I knew the answer to that was yes I'd already be at the hospital ...
- ndriscoll 8mo ago
  It could probably be part of the premise for a gag in a hypothetical Liar Liar 2 after Jim Carrey haphazardly finds himself mixed up in one 30 minutes earlier in the movie, so there's that.
- NoImmatureAdHom 8mo ago
  You say "No", then it turns out you're a HAMAS supporter --> deported.
wongarsu 8mo ago
On the other hand, if somebody said "I'm here for terrorism" and the immigration officer laughed that off, imagine the shitstorm if that person turns out to be a terrorist. For the individual employee the cost of wasting someone's time by escalating the case and detaining them is zero, the potential cost of letting someone slip by is realistically tiny but potentially huge
- xeyownt 8mo ago
  The point is that the situation must be really crazy if we reach a point where someone (mostly foreigner) saying "tourist" is being confused as to saying "terrorist". Airport are full of tourists, and exactly 0 person on the planet would reply with "terrorist".
  - pixl97 8mo ago
    >and exactly 0 person on the planet would reply with "terrorist". Unfortunately you give your fellow humans way too much credit. Much like the people that rob a bank by writing a note saying to hand over all the money... on the back of their own deposit slip.
  - jancsika 8mo ago
    So when an immigration officer makes an error parsing the tourist's words, you think the security protocol ought to be to let the tourist pass through the gate?
traceroute66 8mo ago
> I wonder how many actual terrorists they pick up for saying "I'm here for terrorism" Its like those stupid questions on US immigration forms, e.g. "Do you intend to engage in the United States in Espionage ?" or "Did you ever order, incite or otherwise participate in the persecution of any person ?" It's like, really ? Do they seriously think someone who should answer yes will really answer yes ? Might as well just turn up at the immigration desk, slap your wrists down on the counter and invite them to handcuff you .... why bother with the form !
- ncallaway 8mo ago
  > It's like, really ? Do they seriously think someone who should answer yes will really answer yes ? No, they do not think anyone will check 'Yes' to that box. The purpose of the box is that it's a crime to lie when someone checks 'No', and that tends to be an easy charge to bring. So, the purpose of the form is to generate convictions for lying on the form.
  - traceroute66 8mo ago
    > the purpose of the form is to generate convictions for lying on the form. Yeah but if the immigration officer has reason to question you about those sections of the form then surely they have more than enough evidence of the underlying crime anyway ?
    - labcomputer 8mo ago
      No they’re playing the long game. It’s for if they need to deport (and/or jail) you later. Lying on a customs form is a valid reason to revoke a visa, and it’s an open and shut case.
      - fc417fc802 8mo ago
        Is traveling to the US for the purpose of engaging in espionage not also a valid reason to revoke a visa?

rusk 8mo ago

Believe it or not it’s a question on the pre-clearance form for travel to the US: ”are you or have you ever been a member of a terrorist organisation” - I always wondered what the rationale for that was

wongarsu 8mo ago
It's easier to deport people for lying on their immigration form than for having been a member of a terrorist organization
- kozziollek 8mo ago
  But to prove lying you would have to prove being a terrorist anyway...
  - alpinisme 8mo ago
    No, being a member of a “terrorist organization” and the government allows itself latitude in defining that. It’s much easier to associate someone with an organization than to show personal acts of terrorism.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      Right but to demonstrate that you lied about X they have to demonstrate X. So by the time you're deporting someone for the lie you could just as easily have deported them for the thing itself.
      - pixl97 8mo ago
        You're making assumptions the thing they lied about and the thing they are being deported for are the same, and quite often the thing you're actually being deported for is not a reason to deport anyone at all. You come to the US and make a social media post saying Trump is a big fat dummy head. You get deported for lying about being in a terrorist organization.
        pousada 8mo ago
        Is that actually a realistic example? I’m having trouble following what’s happening in the US
        pixl97 8mo ago
        100%. This pattern of government behavior is everywhere. One common one is the yellow sheet (form 4473) for buying a firearm in the US. Here is an example of a question > “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” No matter the state law, federal law says it's illegal. So, what happens. At some point you buy a gun in Colorado. Then lets say you get on the news and talk about legalization, or you talk about anything that catches social media popularity and someone in the government doesn't approve of. Well, you better not have any record of a marijuana purchase anywhere, or pictures of you doing it because you've just committed a federal crime and the ATF/FBI can kick down your door as they please.
        pousada 8mo ago
        I see what you mean. But is insulting the president evidence of being in a “terrorist organisation” ? I thought free speech was the one principle that is untouchable in the US
      - Chris2048 8mo ago
        Having formerly been a member of a terrorist group is different from currently being in one - it may not be illegal, but lying about it is a deportable offence.
      - martinflack 8mo ago
        But the method of due process may be different, and the standard of proof to meet may be different. Revoking a visa is easier for the executive branch to accomplish.
  - direwolf20 8mo ago
    Member of a terrorist organization. Did you protest for Palestine action? Then you're a member of a terrorist organization, and they don't have to prove you did any terrorism or planned any terrorism. It's a form of thoughtcrime.
mschuster91 8mo ago
> I always wondered what the rationale for that was One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. An easy way to keep communists out of the country. And we've seen how easy it is to expand that list with "antifa" groups just recently, with antifa groups in Germany having to deal with their banks closing their accounts because the banks were afraid of getting hit with retaliation in their US business.
Scoundreller 8mo ago
I liked the “have you been in contact with someone with Ebola” questions the kiosk used to ask people entering Canada. I’m like, uhhhh, I dunno, maybe? A little late to inform me that I was supposed to be asking/testing everyone.
- fc417fc802 8mo ago
  If I knew the answer to that was yes I'd already be at the hospital ...
ndriscoll 8mo ago
It could probably be part of the premise for a gag in a hypothetical Liar Liar 2 after Jim Carrey haphazardly finds himself mixed up in one 30 minutes earlier in the movie, so there's that.
NoImmatureAdHom 8mo ago
You say "No", then it turns out you're a HAMAS supporter --> deported.

wongarsu 8mo ago

On the other hand, if somebody said "I'm here for terrorism" and the immigration officer laughed that off, imagine the shitstorm if that person turns out to be a terrorist. For the individual employee the cost of wasting someone's time by escalating the case and detaining them is zero, the potential cost of letting someone slip by is realistically tiny but potentially huge

xeyownt 8mo ago
The point is that the situation must be really crazy if we reach a point where someone (mostly foreigner) saying "tourist" is being confused as to saying "terrorist". Airport are full of tourists, and exactly 0 person on the planet would reply with "terrorist".
- pixl97 8mo ago
  >and exactly 0 person on the planet would reply with "terrorist". Unfortunately you give your fellow humans way too much credit. Much like the people that rob a bank by writing a note saying to hand over all the money... on the back of their own deposit slip.
- jancsika 8mo ago
  So when an immigration officer makes an error parsing the tourist's words, you think the security protocol ought to be to let the tourist pass through the gate?

traceroute66 8mo ago

> I wonder how many actual terrorists they pick up for saying "I'm here for terrorism" Its like those stupid questions on US immigration forms, e.g. "Do you intend to engage in the United States in Espionage ?" or "Did you ever order, incite or otherwise participate in the persecution of any person ?" It's like, really ? Do they seriously think someone who should answer yes will really answer yes ? Might as well just turn up at the immigration desk, slap your wrists down on the counter and invite them to handcuff you .... why bother with the form !

ncallaway 8mo ago
> It's like, really ? Do they seriously think someone who should answer yes will really answer yes ? No, they do not think anyone will check 'Yes' to that box. The purpose of the box is that it's a crime to lie when someone checks 'No', and that tends to be an easy charge to bring. So, the purpose of the form is to generate convictions for lying on the form.
- traceroute66 8mo ago
  > the purpose of the form is to generate convictions for lying on the form. Yeah but if the immigration officer has reason to question you about those sections of the form then surely they have more than enough evidence of the underlying crime anyway ?
  - labcomputer 8mo ago
    No they’re playing the long game. It’s for if they need to deport (and/or jail) you later. Lying on a customs form is a valid reason to revoke a visa, and it’s an open and shut case.
    - fc417fc802 8mo ago
      Is traveling to the US for the purpose of engaging in espionage not also a valid reason to revoke a visa?