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As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of

As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.

sneak 14y ago
Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban centers have huge amounts of regulation prohibiting new business operations like this (or rendering them practically impossible). Detroit is fairly unique in that almost anything you can think up, you're free to just go ahead and do it. (The cops are too busy even to deal with all of the big, real crimes.) It also means you're basically on your own if someone decides to torch your whole bus fleet - the city that would regulate transit stuff is too busy to do that - but also too busy to properly patrol everything and deter crime. It's a mixed bag. It really is the closest thing to a functioning anarchy that one can find in the first world. I think it's wonderful, but I wouldn't want to live there (again). (I am a born-and-raised Detroiter living in Berlin by way of Manhattan.)
- ihsw 14y ago
  By anarchy you mean lack of government-enforced order rather than simply lack of order, right?
  - rayiner 14y ago
    There is no practical distinction.
    - erikpukinskis 14y ago
      Sure there is. The interior of corporations have non-government-enforced order.
    - Evbn 14y ago
      Of course there is. Taliban, Hezbollah, Mafia, etc originate as nongovernmental entities enforcing order.
      - rayiner 14y ago
        I suppose it depends on how you define "lack of order." Nature abhors a vacuum. When there is no government imposed order the "lack of order" is the ascendency of entities like the Taliban, Somalian warlords, etc. To me this a "lack of order."
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        How do you define "nongovernmental"? I think an argument could be made that each of those are/where governments, although perhaps a little alien seeming to us.
      - jivatmanx 14y ago
        The Taliban was a government, and functions as a government in the areas in controls. Hezbollah has pratically all of the characteristics of a government in the area of Lebanon it controls. Also, it's also the most powerful political party in Lebanon.
- rickyconnolly 14y ago
  How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.
  - sneak 14y ago
    > How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? Yes, he could - but not because it's anarchy, but because it's actually legal for anyone to do that in the state of Michigan. It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go. The line is drawn where the cops have resources to enforce. Rape, murder, armed robbery, major assaults - they usually get to these things. Interestingly, traffic tickets, too - revenue is important. Everything else, not so much.
    - beedogs 14y ago
      > It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go. That seems like a very subjective measurement.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes from just seven heavily regulated, heavily taxed metros: NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Philly, SF, and Boston. And it's not just population, these cities only account for 20% of the US population.
- steiza 14y ago
  Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy. Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy". In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there are also many roads that don't get salted and plowed, and long waits for ambulances - do those people also live in anarchy?
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    If you have a city that gets comparable service as relatively remote rural areas, then yeah, it pretty much is an anarchy. The only thing that you can fairly compare a city to is other cities. As far as cities in America goes, I think it is fair to say that many attributes of Detroit are very reminiscent of an anarchy. There may be better examples, but Detroit stands out for its former prominence.
    - steiza 14y ago
      I can assure you Detroit has "normal" services like city water, garbage collection, electricity, and the majority of roads are maintained (even if 100% of them don't get plowed during the winter). I still don't see how anyone can say that is "reminiscent of anarchy". Is there an anarchy you lived in that it is reminiscent of? Downtown Detroit has two major sports teams (the Tigers and the Red Wings), renown cultural attractions like the Detroit Institute of Arts and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, the world headquarters of a few companies like Quicken Loans and General Motors... the characterization of downtown in this thread is really bordering on the absurd...
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        I don't intend to be harsh, but all of those things are basically baseline expectations. I can't help but think that you are damning the city with faint praise.
      - altcognito 14y ago
- wildgift 14y ago
  Detroit was built up by the auto business, and as the business has become more international, has shrunken as different parts of the business have moved to other cities and other countries. The sense of anarchy is a function of low-density caused by people moving away, leaving empty spaces and absentee landowners. Unfortunately, there's not any really easy way to force people to re-concentrate in areas, to create a new city, and satellite cities.

sneak 14y ago

Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban centers have huge amounts of regulation prohibiting new business operations like this (or rendering them practically impossible). Detroit is fairly unique in that almost anything you can think up, you're free to just go ahead and do it. (The cops are too busy even to deal with all of the big, real crimes.) It also means you're basically on your own if someone decides to torch your whole bus fleet - the city that would regulate transit stuff is too busy to do that - but also too busy to properly patrol everything and deter crime. It's a mixed bag. It really is the closest thing to a functioning anarchy that one can find in the first world. I think it's wonderful, but I wouldn't want to live there (again). (I am a born-and-raised Detroiter living in Berlin by way of Manhattan.)

ihsw 14y ago
By anarchy you mean lack of government-enforced order rather than simply lack of order, right?
- rayiner 14y ago
  There is no practical distinction.
  - erikpukinskis 14y ago
    Sure there is. The interior of corporations have non-government-enforced order.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Of course there is. Taliban, Hezbollah, Mafia, etc originate as nongovernmental entities enforcing order.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      I suppose it depends on how you define "lack of order." Nature abhors a vacuum. When there is no government imposed order the "lack of order" is the ascendency of entities like the Taliban, Somalian warlords, etc. To me this a "lack of order."
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      How do you define "nongovernmental"? I think an argument could be made that each of those are/where governments, although perhaps a little alien seeming to us.
    - jivatmanx 14y ago
      The Taliban was a government, and functions as a government in the areas in controls. Hezbollah has pratically all of the characteristics of a government in the area of Lebanon it controls. Also, it's also the most powerful political party in Lebanon.
rickyconnolly 14y ago
How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? I knew Detroit was bad, but I did not know it was this semi-anarchy you describe.
- sneak 14y ago
  > How far down the libertarian utopia rabbithole does this go? Could Mr Didorosi hire armed guards to protect his fleet? Where is the line drawn? Yes, he could - but not because it's anarchy, but because it's actually legal for anyone to do that in the state of Michigan. It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go. The line is drawn where the cops have resources to enforce. Rape, murder, armed robbery, major assaults - they usually get to these things. Interestingly, traffic tickets, too - revenue is important. Everything else, not so much.
  - beedogs 14y ago
    > It's one of the better states, as far as gun laws go. That seems like a very subjective measurement.
- tsotha 14y ago
  It's funny you should rail against libertarians when discussing a city that's where it is at least in part because the productive people were driven away through extra taxes and regulation.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    The "productive people" were driven away because they didn't want to live next to black people. The Detroit metro area isn't any smaller than it used to be--people just moved to the suburbs. There aren't appreciably fewer regulations in the Detroit suburbs, and taxes aren't any lower either (what you save in sales tax you more than lose in property taxes). It's also a little funny considering that 27% of US GDP comes from just seven heavily regulated, heavily taxed metros: NY, LA, Chicago, DC, Philly, SF, and Boston. And it's not just population, these cities only account for 20% of the US population.
steiza 14y ago
Detroit is not, as some comments are suggesting, in a state of anarchy. Yes, there is crime, similar to other major American cities with crime problems (like St. Louis or Atlanta). Yes, because of depopulation it is hard to get groceries, do your banking, or catch public transportation. But this does not mean the 700,000ish Americans who live in the city proper live in "anarchy". In Michigan's Upper Peninsula there are also many roads that don't get salted and plowed, and long waits for ambulances - do those people also live in anarchy?
- jlgreco 14y ago
  If you have a city that gets comparable service as relatively remote rural areas, then yeah, it pretty much is an anarchy. The only thing that you can fairly compare a city to is other cities. As far as cities in America goes, I think it is fair to say that many attributes of Detroit are very reminiscent of an anarchy. There may be better examples, but Detroit stands out for its former prominence.
  - steiza 14y ago
    I can assure you Detroit has "normal" services like city water, garbage collection, electricity, and the majority of roads are maintained (even if 100% of them don't get plowed during the winter). I still don't see how anyone can say that is "reminiscent of anarchy". Is there an anarchy you lived in that it is reminiscent of? Downtown Detroit has two major sports teams (the Tigers and the Red Wings), renown cultural attractions like the Detroit Institute of Arts and the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, the world headquarters of a few companies like Quicken Loans and General Motors... the characterization of downtown in this thread is really bordering on the absurd...
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I don't intend to be harsh, but all of those things are basically baseline expectations. I can't help but think that you are damning the city with faint praise.
    - altcognito 14y ago
wildgift 14y ago
Detroit was built up by the auto business, and as the business has become more international, has shrunken as different parts of the business have moved to other cities and other countries. The sense of anarchy is a function of low-density caused by people moving away, leaving empty spaces and absentee landowners. Unfortunately, there's not any really easy way to force people to re-concentrate in areas, to create a new city, and satellite cities.