7 ms·

A Private Bus Company Debuts in Detroit

93 points by kshatrea 14y ago

aristidb 14y ago
If they need to be five times more efficient, why is the plan to spend a lot of money on things that do not directly impact customer service, like giving away rides to poor people, and using self-produced Biodiesel?
- gvb 14y ago
  Giving away rides: makes paying riders feel good about paying, good advertisement. Self-produced biodiesel: beyond the "feel good" advertisement, they may actually be saving money if they get the used cooking oil for free. "Right now we’re starting with a downtown loop, which serves primarily entertainment venues, bars, and restaurants." -- Restaurant owners likely are donating their used cooking oil to the bus that stops at their establishment and drops off patrons.
- tijs 14y ago
  because great businesses, for both customers and employees, are not built on pure efficiency.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  "giving away rides to poor people" Marginal cost of filling and empty seat on a bus that already has fuel and a driver? Zero.
mukaiji 14y ago
It's an interesting experiment. If it succeeds, it would be ironic that the solution to America's public transportation is coming from Detroit: after all, GM & co are the guys who bought America's trolleys in the 1950's and disassembled them to boost sales of cars. EDIT: related story on SF's private lines http://stamen.com/zero1/ http://stamen.com/zero1/
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  If this becomes successful, I wouldn't be surprised if Big Auto did the same thing with the companies behind this.
- matznerd 14y ago
  I've heard that NYC had an incredible trolley system where you could get anywhere in manhattan in about 10 minutes. Such a shame that cars displaced true public transit solutions.
  - akgerber 14y ago
    That isn't right. NYC's trolleys/buses were more efficient in the pre-automobile era when there was much less other traffic to block them, but Manhattan is about two miles wide and about 15 miles long; covering even 10 miles in 10 minutes would mean travelling at 60mph on city streets without stopping, and mass transit obviously needs to stop at least every couple miles. The express subway lines still take you up & down the island as quickly as ever (about 25 minutes from 125th St. to the Battery, apparently). Manhattan's mass transit system is largely intact from its peak (except for the incomplete Second Avenue Subway, to replace the demolished Second Avenue Elevated the East Side), and has become better integrated from the private era when there were three competing systems. The trolley lines were more significant in the outer boroughs, and could reach speeds & frequencies similar to their best years with proper implementation of modern light rail or bus rapid transit. That would require the political will to take away surface right-of-way from the (boisterous, wealthier) car-driving minority.
- wildgift 14y ago
  Except in the rust belt cities, the situation in other cities isn't like in Detroit. The current problem is the movement of poor people to the suburbs and exurbs. This is caused by middle class people moving into the cities.
- iamdave 14y ago
  If it succeeds, it doesn't automatically mean it's a "solution" to something as geographically varied, respectively massive, and fiscally complicated and regimented as subsidized public transit. If it succeeds, it does mean it succeeded in the conditions of Detroit, as mass-transit is something so delicate it inherently must be optimized for the city in which it operates. That said, I do absolutely wish them luck living in a city with what I consider absolutely horrible public transit[1] --- [1] This is subjective, highly of course. And given the population boom taking place in Austin, Texas it's somewhat hard to fault CapMetro entirely for the woes of riding the bus. I will say though many will find themselves in agreement living here seeing CapMetro time and time again implement projects that utterly fail because they made no sense to begin with. Yep, I'm looking right at you Red line.
rickyconnolly 14y ago
As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.
- sneak 14y ago
  Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban centers have huge amounts of regulation prohibiting new business operations like this (or rendering them practically impossible). Detroit is fairly unique in that almost anything you can think up, you're free to just go ahead and do it. (The cops are too busy even to deal with all of the big, real crimes.) It also means you're basically on your own if someone decides to torch your whole bus fleet - the city that would regulate transit stuff is too busy to do that - but also too busy to properly patrol everything and deter crime. It's a mixed bag. It really is the closest thing to a functioning anarchy that one can find in the first world. I think it's wonderful, but I wouldn't want to live there (again). (I am a born-and-raised Detroiter living in Berlin by way of Manhattan.)
  - ihsw 14y ago
    By anarchy you mean lack of government-enforced order rather than simply lack of order, right?
    - rayiner 14y ago
      There is no practical distinction.
      - erikpukinskis 14y ago
ebiester 14y ago
What I don't understand is how the Jitney hasn't been allowed by regulation in the US -- they're incredibly convenient, and a fleet of minivans from the key districts to various park n' ride locations would make a ton of sense.
- antidoh 14y ago
  Don't the Googs and FBooks do almost exactly that, for employees? Not much of a step to do it for the paying public. Maybe the fiction of some association would get by current regulation/monopoly.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Taxi companies are required to service the whole city. If you allowed jitney service without that requirement in popular areas, the taxi services couldn't compete.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    This seems easy fixable by subsidizing fares to unpopular areas, financed by a tax in fares in popular areas.
    - jivatmanx 14y ago
      Governments tend to think in terms of Bans and Mandates, rather than taxes and subsidies. The result is poorer, more expensive services, limited to ancient business models.
      - astrodust 14y ago
        More specifically: Lobbyists tend to pursue an agenda of bans and mandates, and so long as your political system is dependent on the interests of lobbyists and their associated campaign financing, these goals will often be achieved.
        rayiner 14y ago
icebraining 14y ago
Related: http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Mungerbus.html http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Mungerbus.html
akgerber 14y ago
This is a party bus service to allow bar hopping in a car-dependent city when passengers are too intoxicated to drive. It only runs on Friday & Saturday nights between a couple of suburban bars & the downtown & university district of Detroit. It might well be a good business (and certainly better than drunk driving), but it's not a meaningful substitute for functional mass transit. Public transit systems require subsidy to permit service at unprofitable times of day & to unprofitable regions of the city, interconnecting parts of a region to permit greater economic activity. Roadway systems are likewise unprofitable on their own. Most transit systems have at least a couple lines that are profitable. In the New York City area, there is significant "dollar van" jitney service & a large number of private bus companies, especially in New Jersey that provide commuter service, rather than serving as a substitute for drunk driving. Dollar vans of varying legalities are also common between Chinatowns & Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods, as well as down Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn. Flatbush Avenue also an easy place to observe the downside to privatized transit run by independent contractors-- the vans usually speed & make dangerous maneuvers to move more fares more quickly, with the safety of other motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists often disregarded. This could be improved by the NYPD enforcing traffic laws, which would be my preference to replacing a useful service. Unfortunately, nearly all American cities have onerous regulation on selling automobile rides to other people, while it's incredibly easy to get a driver's license and private automobile. This raises taxi prices & means there often isn't timely bus/jitney service between popular destinations, which motivates a lot more people to purchase cars & drive them. The cost in car ownership is also mostly in the depreciation of the car & insurance (which is monthly, rather than per-mile), so once a person purchases an automobile because they can't make a few trips by walking/biking/transit, they'll make a lot more trips by car.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Onerous ride regulations are usually the flip side of requiring cab companies to service everyone.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    In reality we usually get the worse of both worlds. There has been some progress in eliminating discrimination (Uber's system in particular resists driver discrimination), but it is still rampant.
thrownaway2424 14y ago
This guy seems a bit mislead. There are definitely not 15 million people in metro Detroit. There are only 5 million people in the census area that includes Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Flint, and has an area over 15000 square kilometers.
- greenyoda 14y ago
  This is true. You can find the reference here (search for "Detroit"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_combined_statistical_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_combined...
- encoderer 14y ago
  Nonsense! As long as I can remember the Detroit metro area has always included the entire state of Michigan. And Toledo, Ohio. And Indiana. All of indiana. (Some joking aside, Indiana as the destination of the next round of white-flight from the Detroit suburbs is amusing to me.)
sfall 14y ago
I know $5 for an all day pass is not bad, cta in chicago is 5.75 for an all day pass but that is all the buses and the l train, but it also is bigger and subsidized. I only hope that they quickly add a 30 day pass.
darklajid 14y ago
Warning: This crappy site auto-played a video with LOUD sound (sounded like gunshots). If you happen to be awake at four am while your pregnant wife isn't, avoid this site and remember the domain name..

93 points by kshatrea 14y ago

If they need to be five times more efficient, why is the plan to spend a lot of money on things that do not directly impact customer service, like giving away rides to poor people, and using self-produced Biodiesel?

gvb 14y ago
Giving away rides: makes paying riders feel good about paying, good advertisement. Self-produced biodiesel: beyond the "feel good" advertisement, they may actually be saving money if they get the used cooking oil for free. "Right now we’re starting with a downtown loop, which serves primarily entertainment venues, bars, and restaurants." -- Restaurant owners likely are donating their used cooking oil to the bus that stops at their establishment and drops off patrons.
tijs 14y ago
because great businesses, for both customers and employees, are not built on pure efficiency.
keithpeter 14y ago
"giving away rides to poor people" Marginal cost of filling and empty seat on a bus that already has fuel and a driver? Zero.

mukaiji 14y ago

It's an interesting experiment. If it succeeds, it would be ironic that the solution to America's public transportation is coming from Detroit: after all, GM & co are the guys who bought America's trolleys in the 1950's and disassembled them to boost sales of cars. EDIT: related story on SF's private lines http://stamen.com/zero1/ http://stamen.com/zero1/

w1ntermute 14y ago
If this becomes successful, I wouldn't be surprised if Big Auto did the same thing with the companies behind this.
matznerd 14y ago
I've heard that NYC had an incredible trolley system where you could get anywhere in manhattan in about 10 minutes. Such a shame that cars displaced true public transit solutions.
- akgerber 14y ago
  That isn't right. NYC's trolleys/buses were more efficient in the pre-automobile era when there was much less other traffic to block them, but Manhattan is about two miles wide and about 15 miles long; covering even 10 miles in 10 minutes would mean travelling at 60mph on city streets without stopping, and mass transit obviously needs to stop at least every couple miles. The express subway lines still take you up & down the island as quickly as ever (about 25 minutes from 125th St. to the Battery, apparently). Manhattan's mass transit system is largely intact from its peak (except for the incomplete Second Avenue Subway, to replace the demolished Second Avenue Elevated the East Side), and has become better integrated from the private era when there were three competing systems. The trolley lines were more significant in the outer boroughs, and could reach speeds & frequencies similar to their best years with proper implementation of modern light rail or bus rapid transit. That would require the political will to take away surface right-of-way from the (boisterous, wealthier) car-driving minority.
wildgift 14y ago
Except in the rust belt cities, the situation in other cities isn't like in Detroit. The current problem is the movement of poor people to the suburbs and exurbs. This is caused by middle class people moving into the cities.
iamdave 14y ago
If it succeeds, it doesn't automatically mean it's a "solution" to something as geographically varied, respectively massive, and fiscally complicated and regimented as subsidized public transit. If it succeeds, it does mean it succeeded in the conditions of Detroit, as mass-transit is something so delicate it inherently must be optimized for the city in which it operates. That said, I do absolutely wish them luck living in a city with what I consider absolutely horrible public transit[1] --- [1] This is subjective, highly of course. And given the population boom taking place in Austin, Texas it's somewhat hard to fault CapMetro entirely for the woes of riding the bus. I will say though many will find themselves in agreement living here seeing CapMetro time and time again implement projects that utterly fail because they made no sense to begin with. Yep, I'm looking right at you Red line.

rickyconnolly 14y ago

As a European, I don't understand the significance of this. Why is the establishment of a private bus company such a big deal? Is this not America, bastion of free market capitalism? Surely many cities must have private services. Here in Ireland we have many private bus services running alongside public companies.

sneak 14y ago
Everything you have come to know about living in the first world becomes negotiable in Detroit. There are huge chunks of the city where there is no postal mail delivery. The streets are not plowed or salted. Calling 911 because an ambulance is required can mean hour-plus waits. America is an insane place, and Detroit is a special microcosm within that insanity. Another thing to consider is that most major urban centers have huge amounts of regulation prohibiting new business operations like this (or rendering them practically impossible). Detroit is fairly unique in that almost anything you can think up, you're free to just go ahead and do it. (The cops are too busy even to deal with all of the big, real crimes.) It also means you're basically on your own if someone decides to torch your whole bus fleet - the city that would regulate transit stuff is too busy to do that - but also too busy to properly patrol everything and deter crime. It's a mixed bag. It really is the closest thing to a functioning anarchy that one can find in the first world. I think it's wonderful, but I wouldn't want to live there (again). (I am a born-and-raised Detroiter living in Berlin by way of Manhattan.)
- ihsw 14y ago
  By anarchy you mean lack of government-enforced order rather than simply lack of order, right?
  - rayiner 14y ago
    There is no practical distinction.
    - erikpukinskis 14y ago

ebiester 14y ago

What I don't understand is how the Jitney hasn't been allowed by regulation in the US -- they're incredibly convenient, and a fleet of minivans from the key districts to various park n' ride locations would make a ton of sense.

antidoh 14y ago
Don't the Googs and FBooks do almost exactly that, for employees? Not much of a step to do it for the paying public. Maybe the fiction of some association would get by current regulation/monopoly.
rayiner 14y ago
Taxi companies are required to service the whole city. If you allowed jitney service without that requirement in popular areas, the taxi services couldn't compete.
- Evbn 14y ago
  This seems easy fixable by subsidizing fares to unpopular areas, financed by a tax in fares in popular areas.
  - jivatmanx 14y ago
    Governments tend to think in terms of Bans and Mandates, rather than taxes and subsidies. The result is poorer, more expensive services, limited to ancient business models.
    - astrodust 14y ago
      More specifically: Lobbyists tend to pursue an agenda of bans and mandates, and so long as your political system is dependent on the interests of lobbyists and their associated campaign financing, these goals will often be achieved.
      - rayiner 14y ago

icebraining 14y ago

Related: http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Mungerbus.html http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Mungerbus.html

akgerber 14y ago

This is a party bus service to allow bar hopping in a car-dependent city when passengers are too intoxicated to drive. It only runs on Friday & Saturday nights between a couple of suburban bars & the downtown & university district of Detroit. It might well be a good business (and certainly better than drunk driving), but it's not a meaningful substitute for functional mass transit. Public transit systems require subsidy to permit service at unprofitable times of day & to unprofitable regions of the city, interconnecting parts of a region to permit greater economic activity. Roadway systems are likewise unprofitable on their own. Most transit systems have at least a couple lines that are profitable. In the New York City area, there is significant "dollar van" jitney service & a large number of private bus companies, especially in New Jersey that provide commuter service, rather than serving as a substitute for drunk driving. Dollar vans of varying legalities are also common between Chinatowns & Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods, as well as down Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn. Flatbush Avenue also an easy place to observe the downside to privatized transit run by independent contractors-- the vans usually speed & make dangerous maneuvers to move more fares more quickly, with the safety of other motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists often disregarded. This could be improved by the NYPD enforcing traffic laws, which would be my preference to replacing a useful service. Unfortunately, nearly all American cities have onerous regulation on selling automobile rides to other people, while it's incredibly easy to get a driver's license and private automobile. This raises taxi prices & means there often isn't timely bus/jitney service between popular destinations, which motivates a lot more people to purchase cars & drive them. The cost in car ownership is also mostly in the depreciation of the car & insurance (which is monthly, rather than per-mile), so once a person purchases an automobile because they can't make a few trips by walking/biking/transit, they'll make a lot more trips by car.

rayiner 14y ago
Onerous ride regulations are usually the flip side of requiring cab companies to service everyone.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  In reality we usually get the worse of both worlds. There has been some progress in eliminating discrimination (Uber's system in particular resists driver discrimination), but it is still rampant.

thrownaway2424 14y ago

This guy seems a bit mislead. There are definitely not 15 million people in metro Detroit. There are only 5 million people in the census area that includes Detroit, Ann Arbor, and Flint, and has an area over 15000 square kilometers.

greenyoda 14y ago
This is true. You can find the reference here (search for "Detroit"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_combined_statistical_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_combined...
encoderer 14y ago
Nonsense! As long as I can remember the Detroit metro area has always included the entire state of Michigan. And Toledo, Ohio. And Indiana. All of indiana. (Some joking aside, Indiana as the destination of the next round of white-flight from the Detroit suburbs is amusing to me.)

sfall 14y ago

I know $5 for an all day pass is not bad, cta in chicago is 5.75 for an all day pass but that is all the buses and the l train, but it also is bigger and subsidized. I only hope that they quickly add a 30 day pass.

darklajid 14y ago

Warning: This crappy site auto-played a video with LOUD sound (sounded like gunshots). If you happen to be awake at four am while your pregnant wife isn't, avoid this site and remember the domain name..