4 ms·

Judge order bars feds from altering or destroying evidence in Pretti shooting

88 points by hn_acker 9mo ago

hn_acker 9mo ago
The original title is: > Judge grants order barring feds from altering or destroying evidence in Pretti shooting
justarobert 9mo ago
Well that is reassuring. This administration has demonstrated an excellent track record of respecting and following judicial orders.
- optimalsolver 9mo ago
  I smiled when I saw the NYT headline asking for an "independent inquiry". Are they living in an alternate reality? These guys are not gonna give two fucks about what some toothless committee concludes three years from now.
_def 9mo ago
Why is that even needed, honestly? Like is "destroying or altering evidence" usually legitimate or what?
- lotsofpulp 9mo ago
  Sounds like federal government employees blocked access to the crime scene to state and local government employees. Presumably, this “order” is to help facilitate access without violence between federal and non federal government employees.
- cdrnsf 9mo ago
  The agencies in question are unlikely to face any accountability. The agencies that would typically investigate something like this are no longer independent and, instead, are headed by feckless Trump loyalists. It doesn't matter whether it's legitimate, it matters whether it serves their ends. If they cared about process or the law they wouldn't have been labeling the victim a domestic terrorist within minutes of ICE agents murdering him.
  - OutOfHere 9mo ago
    A future administration absolutely can and should prosecute every single ICE employee.
    - cdrnsf 9mo ago
      Dissolve it and DHS. Investigate every single ERO agent and prosecute those that meet the bar. Bar all of them from future public service. Prosecute agency heads.
    - cosmicgadget 9mo ago
      They're all getting pardoned.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        Federal pardons only work for federal charges, which murder isn't. A future administration cold, but won't, choose to ignore the law about parsons just like this one is ignoring the law about murder and torture.
        cosmicgadget 9mo ago
        I believe they will try to use removal to get it into federal courts.
        AnimalMuppet 9mo ago
        Does removal let a federal pardon apply to a state crime, even if it's tried in federal court?
        cosmicgadget 9mo ago
        Good question. I suppose Trump doesn't much care, he already attempted to pardon that lady who gave balloting material to Mike Pillow. He'll just go issue the pardons and let the courts sort it out. Or he could have the DOJ charge all of ICE, get the cases removed to federal court, then do an Eric Adams job on them. That'd be a sight to behold.
- tlb 9mo ago
  Deleting data according to a pre-defined schedule (often 90 days) is legitimate and standard. It's good that agencies do this, to limit exposure due to data breaches. And it's normal for courts to issue a preservation order for specific data relevant to a potential case. It'd be better if the courts could actually deal with the case now instead of in 1-5 years, but alas.
  - Jtsummers 9mo ago
    > (often 90 days) Not for government agencies. Data retention generally goes much longer than that, usually measured in years or decades, not days or weeks.
    - tlb 9mo ago
      https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/police-body-camera-policies-retention-and-release https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/poli... has a list of police body cam retention policies. 90 days is pretty common, though it ranges from 30 days to 5 years. Documents are kept longer. But a court needs to think about the shortest possible retention time that any agency might have for any kind of evidence.
      - Jtsummers 9mo ago
        From your link's subheading: > This chart includes categories for how long video is kept if it does not contain evidence of a crime [emphasis added] So yes, some things are short (I did write "usually" for a reason), but even your link doesn't claim that video of a killing would be deleted in 90 days. It's evidence, 90 days would be ridiculously short for retaining evidence. Even for people who don't think the ICE agents committed a crime, the ICE agents and DHS have claimed that this was the outcome from actions by a "domestic terrorist" which certainly makes it evidence of a crime from their own perspective.
jjallen 9mo ago
Not sure why anyone thinks a judges order is worth anything in the USA anymore. I am not reassured at all.
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  If that were the case things would look very different.
  - jjallen 9mo ago
    Like what would that look like? US citizens being shot in the back of the head by government agents? On a weekly basis?
    - cosmicgadget 9mo ago
      I mean you just have to look at all of the things that have been blocked by the courts in the last year. Deportations without access to counsel, federalized national guards, a variety of interim appointments... And before you go there, yes, I am aware the administration has ignored court orders and played dumb afterward. That doesn't mean they've successfully ignored most judicial decisions.
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  They're not enforced any more. The administration can just ignore it.
2muchcoffeeman 9mo ago
Why was such an order needed? Seems like this should be the default and if you are caught tampering, straight to jail.
- acdha 9mo ago
  This prevents them from pleading ignorance or incompetence. There’s no way to say you didn’t know that you needed to keep records when a federal judge very specifically ordered you to do so.
  - dpkirchner 9mo ago
    What punishment will they actually receive when they defy this order?
    - acdha 9mo ago
      That’s quite the national question more broadly but I look at it this way: if the administration and the Roberts court go all-in on a coup, there’s not going to be accountability without a lot of pain. In that scenario, this doesn’t matter except as evidence for some future tribunal. However, these guys aren’t Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, etc. on their rise to power. The guy at the top is starting as a struggling octogenarian who even in his prime had an entire professional career based not on hard work but tax evasion and barratry. Most of his top delegates were selected for their social media profiles, not competency, and even within the right a lot of people disliked them personally even if they’re willing to overlook that for power. His supporters are quite loyal but are also being hit by a lot of his policies in ways which are hard to ignore. That makes me think there are a range of scenarios where this does matter, as we can see right now. Cops tend to support Republicans but a number of them are stepping up to say this is outside of their professional standards. A lot of “law and order” suburban voters are seeing these videos not just as something they don’t approve of–especially the “he had a legal gun so we had to execute him” defense–but also recognizing that the administration completely lied about that and we know only because of the kind of evidence at risk here. The Roberts court has taken significant moves to empower Trump, but it seems like they’re hedging their bets in key areas: note how the shield against prosecution was conditional leaving them an easy way to find the opposite in any future case, and how much of their support has been shadow docket moves designed to delay without setting a permanent precedent. I think they’re recognizing the fragility of the current administration and leaving a backup plan for the autogolpe failing. Things like this force the administration’s supporters to be more open about what they’re doing, in ways which risk losing their less die-hard supporters. Blowing off a court order forces SCOTUS to either rule against the administration or go on the record inventing a new way the executive branch is above the law. I think they know that’s risky at a time when a majority of the country is starting to realize exactly what’s at stake.
hippo22 9mo ago
I don’t think this belongs on HN. There isn’t a compelling technical angle and there are plenty of other venues to discuss politics.
- acdha 9mo ago
  The technical angle which is most of interest to me are building systems which preserve evidence. For example, how do you build a cloud sync service which prevents someone other than the owner of the phone from deleting videos without the owner’s consent (or in ways which allow them to regain access after being released) while still allowing people to delete things they might not want a hostile government to see. There are no silver bullets here but some really interesting trade offs.
  - hippo22 9mo ago
    None of that is present in the article, however, which essentially consists of a restatement of the headline. This post is essentially engagement bait.
- happytoexplain 9mo ago
  There is a line across which happenings are universally relevant, and we have crossed it. This is especially important on platforms that are ostensibly enlightened. There are borderline zero viable platforms for political discourse. Do not try to censor discourse here.
  - hippo22 9mo ago
    Try Reddit. You’ll see this exact topic discussed nearly indefinitely.
    - happytoexplain 9mo ago
      I'm not interested in their discourse. Topics != community. But that's obvious - there's no reason to ignore that fact unless you're trying to insult somebody for petty reasons.
b00ty4breakfast 9mo ago
These judges can spend the rest of eternity issuing these orders but there is no mechanism to enforce it since the current administration has shown a complete disregard for precedence and mores.
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  The thing about precedence is it's not binding. Judges' orders are, alas many of them get overturned on appeal.
defrost 9mo ago
Currently doing the rounds of non US but allied special forces and commando chat groups is the blunt response of US General Tony Thomas, former head of the Special Operations Command (2016 to 2019) to each and every one of the senior Trump administration pushing the domestic terrorist line. Stephen Miller (for one of many) tweeted: A would-be assassin tried to murder federal law enforcement and the official Democrat account sides with the terrorists. General Tony Thomas responded with a high resolution image of the first shot taken, from the rear, execution style: https://x.com/TonyT2Thomas/status/2015629593265250810 https://x.com/TonyT2Thomas/status/2015629593265250810 I hope the US population can reign in Hegseth, Miller, Bondi, et al clown car. It's obvious to all across the globe what's going here. For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_A._Thomas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_A._Thomas can be compared to the bio of the day drinking weekend warrior currently heading the US DoD.
- cosmicgadget 9mo ago
  > I hope the US population can reign in Hegseth, Miller, Bondi, et al clown car. There's not much chance of that. The courts may keep them within some guardrails but there's no stopping this save for the impossible impeachment+conviction. Maybe public opinion will convince them to soften, e.g. the news of Bovino getting reassigned.
- CamperBob2 9mo ago
  Unfortunately it appears the general has fallen for an AI hoax photo.
  - defrost 9mo ago
    Dunno about that. Not whether the photo was AI or not, and not whether he has fallen for it if it was. It's still a strong comment on the situation likely formed from watching the dynamics of the situation in play on video from somebody that has experience in volatile policing of real and quasi war zones. It's strength is from pushing back on the Miller-time obvious propaganda. Where it falls down is engaging in fighting bald untruths and memes from the Whitehouse with likely more of the same. In our part of the world, as in any part, we do bad things, our people do bad things, but we endeavour to hold their feet to fire when they do: * https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c04en9wllpxo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c04en9wllpxo * https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-07/kumanjayi-walker-inquest-findings-nt-coroner-yuendumu/105497006 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-07/kumanjayi-walker-inqu... It's disapointing to see the official Whitehouse feeds being used for clowning about wrt serious events and the first response to tragedy being to obviously lie and deny.
JohnTHaller 9mo ago
Given Trump folks' previous behavior surrounding court orders of documents, I'm sure this will be respected

88 points by hn_acker 9mo ago

The original title is: > Judge grants order barring feds from altering or destroying evidence in Pretti shooting

Well that is reassuring. This administration has demonstrated an excellent track record of respecting and following judicial orders.

optimalsolver 9mo ago
I smiled when I saw the NYT headline asking for an "independent inquiry". Are they living in an alternate reality? These guys are not gonna give two fucks about what some toothless committee concludes three years from now.

_def 9mo ago

Why is that even needed, honestly? Like is "destroying or altering evidence" usually legitimate or what?

lotsofpulp 9mo ago
Sounds like federal government employees blocked access to the crime scene to state and local government employees. Presumably, this “order” is to help facilitate access without violence between federal and non federal government employees.
cdrnsf 9mo ago
The agencies in question are unlikely to face any accountability. The agencies that would typically investigate something like this are no longer independent and, instead, are headed by feckless Trump loyalists. It doesn't matter whether it's legitimate, it matters whether it serves their ends. If they cared about process or the law they wouldn't have been labeling the victim a domestic terrorist within minutes of ICE agents murdering him.
- OutOfHere 9mo ago
  A future administration absolutely can and should prosecute every single ICE employee.
  - cdrnsf 9mo ago
    Dissolve it and DHS. Investigate every single ERO agent and prosecute those that meet the bar. Bar all of them from future public service. Prosecute agency heads.
  - cosmicgadget 9mo ago
    They're all getting pardoned.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      Federal pardons only work for federal charges, which murder isn't. A future administration cold, but won't, choose to ignore the law about parsons just like this one is ignoring the law about murder and torture.
      - cosmicgadget 9mo ago
        I believe they will try to use removal to get it into federal courts.
        AnimalMuppet 9mo ago
        Does removal let a federal pardon apply to a state crime, even if it's tried in federal court?
        cosmicgadget 9mo ago
        Good question. I suppose Trump doesn't much care, he already attempted to pardon that lady who gave balloting material to Mike Pillow. He'll just go issue the pardons and let the courts sort it out. Or he could have the DOJ charge all of ICE, get the cases removed to federal court, then do an Eric Adams job on them. That'd be a sight to behold.
tlb 9mo ago
Deleting data according to a pre-defined schedule (often 90 days) is legitimate and standard. It's good that agencies do this, to limit exposure due to data breaches. And it's normal for courts to issue a preservation order for specific data relevant to a potential case. It'd be better if the courts could actually deal with the case now instead of in 1-5 years, but alas.
- Jtsummers 9mo ago
  > (often 90 days) Not for government agencies. Data retention generally goes much longer than that, usually measured in years or decades, not days or weeks.
  - tlb 9mo ago
    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/police-body-camera-policies-retention-and-release https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/poli... has a list of police body cam retention policies. 90 days is pretty common, though it ranges from 30 days to 5 years. Documents are kept longer. But a court needs to think about the shortest possible retention time that any agency might have for any kind of evidence.
    - Jtsummers 9mo ago
      From your link's subheading: > This chart includes categories for how long video is kept if it does not contain evidence of a crime [emphasis added] So yes, some things are short (I did write "usually" for a reason), but even your link doesn't claim that video of a killing would be deleted in 90 days. It's evidence, 90 days would be ridiculously short for retaining evidence. Even for people who don't think the ICE agents committed a crime, the ICE agents and DHS have claimed that this was the outcome from actions by a "domestic terrorist" which certainly makes it evidence of a crime from their own perspective.

jjallen 9mo ago

Not sure why anyone thinks a judges order is worth anything in the USA anymore. I am not reassured at all.

cosmicgadget 9mo ago
If that were the case things would look very different.
- jjallen 9mo ago
  Like what would that look like? US citizens being shot in the back of the head by government agents? On a weekly basis?
  - cosmicgadget 9mo ago
    I mean you just have to look at all of the things that have been blocked by the courts in the last year. Deportations without access to counsel, federalized national guards, a variety of interim appointments... And before you go there, yes, I am aware the administration has ignored court orders and played dumb afterward. That doesn't mean they've successfully ignored most judicial decisions.
direwolf20 9mo ago
They're not enforced any more. The administration can just ignore it.

2muchcoffeeman 9mo ago

Why was such an order needed? Seems like this should be the default and if you are caught tampering, straight to jail.

acdha 9mo ago
This prevents them from pleading ignorance or incompetence. There’s no way to say you didn’t know that you needed to keep records when a federal judge very specifically ordered you to do so.
- dpkirchner 9mo ago
  What punishment will they actually receive when they defy this order?
  - acdha 9mo ago
    That’s quite the national question more broadly but I look at it this way: if the administration and the Roberts court go all-in on a coup, there’s not going to be accountability without a lot of pain. In that scenario, this doesn’t matter except as evidence for some future tribunal. However, these guys aren’t Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, etc. on their rise to power. The guy at the top is starting as a struggling octogenarian who even in his prime had an entire professional career based not on hard work but tax evasion and barratry. Most of his top delegates were selected for their social media profiles, not competency, and even within the right a lot of people disliked them personally even if they’re willing to overlook that for power. His supporters are quite loyal but are also being hit by a lot of his policies in ways which are hard to ignore. That makes me think there are a range of scenarios where this does matter, as we can see right now. Cops tend to support Republicans but a number of them are stepping up to say this is outside of their professional standards. A lot of “law and order” suburban voters are seeing these videos not just as something they don’t approve of–especially the “he had a legal gun so we had to execute him” defense–but also recognizing that the administration completely lied about that and we know only because of the kind of evidence at risk here. The Roberts court has taken significant moves to empower Trump, but it seems like they’re hedging their bets in key areas: note how the shield against prosecution was conditional leaving them an easy way to find the opposite in any future case, and how much of their support has been shadow docket moves designed to delay without setting a permanent precedent. I think they’re recognizing the fragility of the current administration and leaving a backup plan for the autogolpe failing. Things like this force the administration’s supporters to be more open about what they’re doing, in ways which risk losing their less die-hard supporters. Blowing off a court order forces SCOTUS to either rule against the administration or go on the record inventing a new way the executive branch is above the law. I think they know that’s risky at a time when a majority of the country is starting to realize exactly what’s at stake.

hippo22 9mo ago

I don’t think this belongs on HN. There isn’t a compelling technical angle and there are plenty of other venues to discuss politics.

acdha 9mo ago
The technical angle which is most of interest to me are building systems which preserve evidence. For example, how do you build a cloud sync service which prevents someone other than the owner of the phone from deleting videos without the owner’s consent (or in ways which allow them to regain access after being released) while still allowing people to delete things they might not want a hostile government to see. There are no silver bullets here but some really interesting trade offs.
- hippo22 9mo ago
  None of that is present in the article, however, which essentially consists of a restatement of the headline. This post is essentially engagement bait.
happytoexplain 9mo ago
There is a line across which happenings are universally relevant, and we have crossed it. This is especially important on platforms that are ostensibly enlightened. There are borderline zero viable platforms for political discourse. Do not try to censor discourse here.
- hippo22 9mo ago
  Try Reddit. You’ll see this exact topic discussed nearly indefinitely.
  - happytoexplain 9mo ago
    I'm not interested in their discourse. Topics != community. But that's obvious - there's no reason to ignore that fact unless you're trying to insult somebody for petty reasons.

b00ty4breakfast 9mo ago

These judges can spend the rest of eternity issuing these orders but there is no mechanism to enforce it since the current administration has shown a complete disregard for precedence and mores.

cosmicgadget 9mo ago
The thing about precedence is it's not binding. Judges' orders are, alas many of them get overturned on appeal.

defrost 9mo ago

Currently doing the rounds of non US but allied special forces and commando chat groups is the blunt response of US General Tony Thomas, former head of the Special Operations Command (2016 to 2019) to each and every one of the senior Trump administration pushing the domestic terrorist line. Stephen Miller (for one of many) tweeted: A would-be assassin tried to murder federal law enforcement and the official Democrat account sides with the terrorists. General Tony Thomas responded with a high resolution image of the first shot taken, from the rear, execution style: https://x.com/TonyT2Thomas/status/2015629593265250810 https://x.com/TonyT2Thomas/status/2015629593265250810 I hope the US population can reign in Hegseth, Miller, Bondi, et al clown car. It's obvious to all across the globe what's going here. For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_A._Thomas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_A._Thomas can be compared to the bio of the day drinking weekend warrior currently heading the US DoD.

cosmicgadget 9mo ago
> I hope the US population can reign in Hegseth, Miller, Bondi, et al clown car. There's not much chance of that. The courts may keep them within some guardrails but there's no stopping this save for the impossible impeachment+conviction. Maybe public opinion will convince them to soften, e.g. the news of Bovino getting reassigned.
CamperBob2 9mo ago
Unfortunately it appears the general has fallen for an AI hoax photo.
- defrost 9mo ago
  Dunno about that. Not whether the photo was AI or not, and not whether he has fallen for it if it was. It's still a strong comment on the situation likely formed from watching the dynamics of the situation in play on video from somebody that has experience in volatile policing of real and quasi war zones. It's strength is from pushing back on the Miller-time obvious propaganda. Where it falls down is engaging in fighting bald untruths and memes from the Whitehouse with likely more of the same. In our part of the world, as in any part, we do bad things, our people do bad things, but we endeavour to hold their feet to fire when they do: * https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c04en9wllpxo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c04en9wllpxo * https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-07/kumanjayi-walker-inquest-findings-nt-coroner-yuendumu/105497006 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-07/kumanjayi-walker-inqu... It's disapointing to see the official Whitehouse feeds being used for clowning about wrt serious events and the first response to tragedy being to obviously lie and deny.

JohnTHaller 9mo ago

Given Trump folks' previous behavior surrounding court orders of documents, I'm sure this will be respected