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I think this is a pretty solid analogy but I look at the metaphor this way - people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor. Because

by frankc 8mo ago

I think this is a pretty solid analogy but I look at the metaphor this way - people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor. Because we invented things like the forklift we had to invent things like weightlifting to get strong instead. You can still get strong, you just need to be more deliberate about it. It doesn't mean shouldn't also use a forklift, which is its own distinct skill you also need to learn. It's not a perfect analogy though because in this case it's more like automated driving - you should still learn to drive because the autodriver isn't perfect and you need to be ready to take the wheel, but that means deliberate, separate practice at learning to drive.

thesz 8mo ago
Weightlifting and weight training was invented long before forklifts. Even levers were not properly understood back then. My favorite historic example of typical modern hypertrophy-specific training is the training of Milo of Croton [1]. By legend, his father gifted him with the calf and asked daily "what is your calf, how does it do? bring it here to look at him" which Milo did. As calf's weight grew, so did Milo's strength. This is application of external resistance (calf) and progressive overload (growing calf) principles at work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton Milo lived before Archimedes.
- aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
  Dad needs to respect that we need rest days.
  - thesz 8mo ago
    Bulgarian Method does not have rest days: https://www.mashelite.com/the-bulgarian-method-is-worth-a-look/ https://www.mashelite.com/the-bulgarian-method-is-worth-a-lo... Alexander Zass (Iron Samson) also trained each day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Zass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Zass "He was taken as a prisoner of war four times, but managed to escape each time. As a prisoner, he pushed and pulled his cell bars as part of strength training, which was cited as an example of the effectiveness of isometrics. At least one of his escapes involved him 'breaking chains and bending bars'." Rest days are overrated. ;)
    - hxugufjfjf 8mo ago
      They are until you get injured, burned out or both and stop training all together.
      - thesz 8mo ago
        If you do a single set of half of exercises you need to train each day of the week, rotating these halves, you get 3 and a half sets of each exercise per week. Training volume of Bulgarian Method is not much bigger than that of regular training splits like Sheiko or something like that, if bigger at all. What is more frequent is the stimulation of muscles and nervous system paths and BM adapts to that - one does high percentage of one's current max, essentially, one is training with what is available to one's body at the time. Also, ultra long distance runners regenerate cartilages: https://ryortho.com/2015/12/what-ultra-long-distance-runners-regenerate-cartilage/ https://ryortho.com/2015/12/what-ultra-long-distance-runners... Our bodies are amazing.
- chairmansteve 8mo ago
  Milo might have had slaves, the forklifts of his time....
- epiccoleman 8mo ago
  > what is your calf, how does it do? ... it's a calf, dad, just like yesterday
- gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
  I looked up the weight of cows from that era. Only about 400 lbs. Seems doable.
WorldMaker 8mo ago
> people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor I think that's a bit of a myth. The Greeks and Romans had weightlifting and boxing gyms, but no forklifts. Many of the most renowned Romans in the original form of the Olympics and in Boxing were Roman Senators with the wealth and free time to lift weights and box and wrestle. One of the things that we know about the famous philosopher Plato was that Plato was essentially a nickname from wrestling (meaning "Broad") as a first career (somewhat like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, which adds a fun twist to reading Socratic Dialogs or thinking about relationships as "platonic"). Arguably the "meritocratic ideal" of the Gladiator arena was that even "blue collar" Romans could compete and maybe survive. But even the stories that survive of that, few did. There may be a lesson in that myth, too, that the people that succeed in some sports often aren't the people doing physical labor because they must do physical labor (for a job), they are the ones intentionally practicing it in the ways to do well in sports.
- port11 8mo ago
  I can’t attest to the entire past, but my ancestors on both sides were farmers or construction workers. They were fit. Heck, my dad has a beer gut at 65 but still has arm muscles that’ll put me to shame — someone lifting weights once a week. I’ve had to do construction for a summer and everyone there was in good shape. They don’t go to the gym, they don’t have the energy; the job shapes you. More or less the same for the farmers in the family. Perhaps this was less so in the industrial era because of poor nutrition (source: Bill Bryson, hopefully well researched). Hunter gatherer cultures that we still study today have tremendous fitness (Daniel Lieberman).
  - hn_acc1 8mo ago
    My dad was a machinist, apprenticed in Germany after WW2. Always somewhat overweight (5'9", 225 lbs during his "peak" years), but he could lift guys up by their belt with one arm, and pick up and move 200+ lb metal billets when he got too impatient to wheel the crane over. Even at 85 now, he's probably stronger in his arms than most 60 year olds. But I'm also not saying ALL of his co-workers were that strong, either.
hennell 8mo ago
>if the goal is to build up your own strength I think you missed this line. If the goal is just to move weights or lift the most - forklift away. If you want to learn to use a forklift, drive on and best of luck. But if you're trying to get stronger the forklift will not help that goal. Like many educational tests the outcome is not the point - doing the work to get there is. If you're asked to code fizz buzz it's not because the teacher needs you to solve fizz buzz for them, it's because you will learn things while you make it. Ai, copying stack overflow, using someone's code from last year, it all solves the problem while missing the purpose of the exercise. You're not learning - and presumably that is your goal.
SecretDreams 8mo ago
> people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor. People used to get strong because they had to survive. They stopped needing strength to survive, so it became optional. So what does this mean about intelligence? Do we no longer need it to survive so it's optional? Yes/No informs on how much young and developing minds should be exposed to AI.
bryan2 8mo ago
You don’t need to be strong to operate a forklift but you definitely need to be able to write the simple code to be a SWE.

by frankc 8mo ago

thesz 8mo ago

Weightlifting and weight training was invented long before forklifts. Even levers were not properly understood back then. My favorite historic example of typical modern hypertrophy-specific training is the training of Milo of Croton [1]. By legend, his father gifted him with the calf and asked daily "what is your calf, how does it do? bring it here to look at him" which Milo did. As calf's weight grew, so did Milo's strength. This is application of external resistance (calf) and progressive overload (growing calf) principles at work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton Milo lived before Archimedes.

aaronbrethorst 8mo ago
Dad needs to respect that we need rest days.
- thesz 8mo ago
  Bulgarian Method does not have rest days: https://www.mashelite.com/the-bulgarian-method-is-worth-a-look/ https://www.mashelite.com/the-bulgarian-method-is-worth-a-lo... Alexander Zass (Iron Samson) also trained each day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Zass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Zass "He was taken as a prisoner of war four times, but managed to escape each time. As a prisoner, he pushed and pulled his cell bars as part of strength training, which was cited as an example of the effectiveness of isometrics. At least one of his escapes involved him 'breaking chains and bending bars'." Rest days are overrated. ;)
  - hxugufjfjf 8mo ago
    They are until you get injured, burned out or both and stop training all together.
    - thesz 8mo ago
      If you do a single set of half of exercises you need to train each day of the week, rotating these halves, you get 3 and a half sets of each exercise per week. Training volume of Bulgarian Method is not much bigger than that of regular training splits like Sheiko or something like that, if bigger at all. What is more frequent is the stimulation of muscles and nervous system paths and BM adapts to that - one does high percentage of one's current max, essentially, one is training with what is available to one's body at the time. Also, ultra long distance runners regenerate cartilages: https://ryortho.com/2015/12/what-ultra-long-distance-runners-regenerate-cartilage/ https://ryortho.com/2015/12/what-ultra-long-distance-runners... Our bodies are amazing.
chairmansteve 8mo ago
Milo might have had slaves, the forklifts of his time....
epiccoleman 8mo ago
> what is your calf, how does it do? ... it's a calf, dad, just like yesterday
gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
I looked up the weight of cows from that era. Only about 400 lbs. Seems doable.

WorldMaker 8mo ago

> people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor I think that's a bit of a myth. The Greeks and Romans had weightlifting and boxing gyms, but no forklifts. Many of the most renowned Romans in the original form of the Olympics and in Boxing were Roman Senators with the wealth and free time to lift weights and box and wrestle. One of the things that we know about the famous philosopher Plato was that Plato was essentially a nickname from wrestling (meaning "Broad") as a first career (somewhat like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, which adds a fun twist to reading Socratic Dialogs or thinking about relationships as "platonic"). Arguably the "meritocratic ideal" of the Gladiator arena was that even "blue collar" Romans could compete and maybe survive. But even the stories that survive of that, few did. There may be a lesson in that myth, too, that the people that succeed in some sports often aren't the people doing physical labor because they must do physical labor (for a job), they are the ones intentionally practicing it in the ways to do well in sports.

port11 8mo ago
I can’t attest to the entire past, but my ancestors on both sides were farmers or construction workers. They were fit. Heck, my dad has a beer gut at 65 but still has arm muscles that’ll put me to shame — someone lifting weights once a week. I’ve had to do construction for a summer and everyone there was in good shape. They don’t go to the gym, they don’t have the energy; the job shapes you. More or less the same for the farmers in the family. Perhaps this was less so in the industrial era because of poor nutrition (source: Bill Bryson, hopefully well researched). Hunter gatherer cultures that we still study today have tremendous fitness (Daniel Lieberman).
- hn_acc1 8mo ago
  My dad was a machinist, apprenticed in Germany after WW2. Always somewhat overweight (5'9", 225 lbs during his "peak" years), but he could lift guys up by their belt with one arm, and pick up and move 200+ lb metal billets when he got too impatient to wheel the crane over. Even at 85 now, he's probably stronger in his arms than most 60 year olds. But I'm also not saying ALL of his co-workers were that strong, either.

hennell 8mo ago

>if the goal is to build up your own strength I think you missed this line. If the goal is just to move weights or lift the most - forklift away. If you want to learn to use a forklift, drive on and best of luck. But if you're trying to get stronger the forklift will not help that goal. Like many educational tests the outcome is not the point - doing the work to get there is. If you're asked to code fizz buzz it's not because the teacher needs you to solve fizz buzz for them, it's because you will learn things while you make it. Ai, copying stack overflow, using someone's code from last year, it all solves the problem while missing the purpose of the exercise. You're not learning - and presumably that is your goal.

SecretDreams 8mo ago

> people used to get strong naturally because they had to do physical labor. People used to get strong because they had to survive. They stopped needing strength to survive, so it became optional. So what does this mean about intelligence? Do we no longer need it to survive so it's optional? Yes/No informs on how much young and developing minds should be exposed to AI.

bryan2 8mo ago

You don’t need to be strong to operate a forklift but you definitely need to be able to write the simple code to be a SWE.