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> And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) . > [ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everyw

> And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) . > [ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everywere from sattelite ] Right - but then you also depend on an US service here. And the USA changed policy where Europeans became enemies ("we won't give you arms to defend against Russian invaders! Greenland will be occupied by our military soon!"). It's a bad situation, lose-lose here. I don't think the price difference is the primary problem though; the behaviour of Telekom is the problem. That must change. The state has to ensure fairness rather than allow monopolies to milk The People.

em-bee 9mo ago
are all starlink connections routed through the US? don't they do local downlinks? at least for countries they have an agreement with or where the infrastructure is available?
- lucianbr 9mo ago
  What does it matter where they are routed through? You think your Starlink service in Germany is beyond the control of Musk or the US government?
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    I think Musk cares about revenue more than pissing off some random customer in Germany. As long as you don't stand out from the crowd, he'd rather have your $40. Use a VPN to be sure.
    - hdgvhicv 9mo ago
      Until the us government says to withhold service or to tap the line. Musk is a subject of the US president. Like all American CEO’s he has to pay his tribute and jump when the president’s law enforcement says to.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        If you don't stand out, and use a VPN, they can get nothing. If they cut your service, well, you can switch back to DT, crap as it is.
  - em-bee 9mo ago
    i misread the parent. i read it as depending on the US internet but they meant depending on US regulations. so yes, it doesn't matter for the latter.
- formerly_proven 9mo ago
  Who owns and controls starlink? A local downlink dish or a US defense contractor?
- ccozan 9mo ago
  No. My endpoint is in Berlin. Which implies there is a EU based major downlink somewhere.
fc417fc802 9mo ago
The best solution here would probably be the EU launching its own internet constellation. China and the US both have them. How is this any different than the issues surrounding GPS?
- spwa4 9mo ago
  The EU did do that, decades ago. The problem is that it requires constant investment. It's not profitable. The governments helped build it, abandoned the companies until they went bankrupt, rescued them (they're not actually insane enough to just abandon working satellites), privatized them, they went bankrupt, ... Obviously the satellites were never modernized. But it does work, for a few thousand terminals for all of Europe with 2x to 10x the ping Starlink provides. It's like a lot of things in the EU: on the one hand the EU absolutely requires this infrastructure, or they become dependent on foreign nations for critical infrastructure. But they won't pay. It's not even that expensive. Starlink was built with budgets that would be double-digit millions per year per EU country. But the main problem always repeats: they can't agree who gets the money/business. If you calculate the lifespan and cost of a Starlink satellite you will come to the obvious conclusion: it will be very hard for Starlink to break even. Of course, the same can be said for most of Musk's businesses (perhaps all. I'm not actually aware of any exceptions)
  - Dylan16807 9mo ago
    > If you calculate the lifespan and cost of a Starlink satellite you will come to the obvious conclusion: it will be very hard for Starlink to break even. We don't have up to date revenue numbers but let's look at spending $5B a year on sattelite launches. That's probably around half their current revenue, and they're gaining customers quickly. They're doing about 100 launches a year, and each launch is about 30 $1M satellites and $15M of rocket. That fits into the budget. And for just maintaining the constellation they could cut the number of launches in half.
- ccozan 9mo ago
  Well there is one : Eutelsat OneWeb
throwaway140126 9mo ago
Well, you have a point but on the other side since about 20 years the Telekom does not even think about improving the internet connection in the place I live. At some point you're just fed up. To me it seems like they just do not care about providing a good service and even if they would now provide a good service I would be more willing to give my money someone else.
simianparrot 9mo ago
[flagged]
- B1FIDO 9mo ago
  It was hilarious when I checked the movie listings for this week and found Greenland 2 in its opening run. So I went to YouTube and rented Greenland (2010). It was a hoot! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_(film) I wrote "it's the second funniest rom-com I've ever seen". But seriously, it was filmed in close collaboration with the United States Air Force. (Much like Mission: Impossible was a collab between US Gov and US Mil units.) It is kind of a fun ride if you're willing to suspend that much disbelief. But I just found it hilarious that a pair of films named and set in Greenland should be produced in this way, while the actual country is in our news cycle now. I almost feel like it's a "PR buzz campaign".
holowoodman 9mo ago
> he behaviour of Telekom is the problem. That must change. The state has to ensure fairness rather than allow monopolies to milk The People. The state is the monopoly here. Telekom is still partially state-owned (~27%), since they were, back in the 90s, privatized from the former total monopoly "Deutsche Bundespost" and the related ministry "Bundespostministerium". Nowadays, the parts of the ministry that were back then regulating EM spectrum, allowable phones (basically phone police, you had to rent from Bundespost or go to jail) and generally being corrupt (relations of the former ministry to copper manufacturers is why they botched the first fibre rollouts in '95 and then ignored the topic for 20 years). Nowadays, the "Regulierungsbehoerde", staffed with the same people, is supposed to regulate their former colleagues at Telekom. Telekom got all the networks and was never split up, so it still has a (~85%?) monopoly on everything copper basically, as well as on customers, using this monopoly to bully other ISPs as well as it's own customers and extending this monopoly into future tech. And the state has a financial interest in this regulation being as lax as possible. So you can imagine how this goes...

em-bee 9mo ago

are all starlink connections routed through the US? don't they do local downlinks? at least for countries they have an agreement with or where the infrastructure is available?

lucianbr 9mo ago
What does it matter where they are routed through? You think your Starlink service in Germany is beyond the control of Musk or the US government?
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  I think Musk cares about revenue more than pissing off some random customer in Germany. As long as you don't stand out from the crowd, he'd rather have your $40. Use a VPN to be sure.
  - hdgvhicv 9mo ago
    Until the us government says to withhold service or to tap the line. Musk is a subject of the US president. Like all American CEO’s he has to pay his tribute and jump when the president’s law enforcement says to.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      If you don't stand out, and use a VPN, they can get nothing. If they cut your service, well, you can switch back to DT, crap as it is.
- em-bee 9mo ago
  i misread the parent. i read it as depending on the US internet but they meant depending on US regulations. so yes, it doesn't matter for the latter.
formerly_proven 9mo ago
Who owns and controls starlink? A local downlink dish or a US defense contractor?
ccozan 9mo ago
No. My endpoint is in Berlin. Which implies there is a EU based major downlink somewhere.

fc417fc802 9mo ago

The best solution here would probably be the EU launching its own internet constellation. China and the US both have them. How is this any different than the issues surrounding GPS?

spwa4 9mo ago
The EU did do that, decades ago. The problem is that it requires constant investment. It's not profitable. The governments helped build it, abandoned the companies until they went bankrupt, rescued them (they're not actually insane enough to just abandon working satellites), privatized them, they went bankrupt, ... Obviously the satellites were never modernized. But it does work, for a few thousand terminals for all of Europe with 2x to 10x the ping Starlink provides. It's like a lot of things in the EU: on the one hand the EU absolutely requires this infrastructure, or they become dependent on foreign nations for critical infrastructure. But they won't pay. It's not even that expensive. Starlink was built with budgets that would be double-digit millions per year per EU country. But the main problem always repeats: they can't agree who gets the money/business. If you calculate the lifespan and cost of a Starlink satellite you will come to the obvious conclusion: it will be very hard for Starlink to break even. Of course, the same can be said for most of Musk's businesses (perhaps all. I'm not actually aware of any exceptions)
- Dylan16807 9mo ago
  > If you calculate the lifespan and cost of a Starlink satellite you will come to the obvious conclusion: it will be very hard for Starlink to break even. We don't have up to date revenue numbers but let's look at spending $5B a year on sattelite launches. That's probably around half their current revenue, and they're gaining customers quickly. They're doing about 100 launches a year, and each launch is about 30 $1M satellites and $15M of rocket. That fits into the budget. And for just maintaining the constellation they could cut the number of launches in half.
ccozan 9mo ago
Well there is one : Eutelsat OneWeb

throwaway140126 9mo ago

Well, you have a point but on the other side since about 20 years the Telekom does not even think about improving the internet connection in the place I live. At some point you're just fed up. To me it seems like they just do not care about providing a good service and even if they would now provide a good service I would be more willing to give my money someone else.

simianparrot 9mo ago

[flagged]

B1FIDO 9mo ago
It was hilarious when I checked the movie listings for this week and found Greenland 2 in its opening run. So I went to YouTube and rented Greenland (2010). It was a hoot! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_(film) I wrote "it's the second funniest rom-com I've ever seen". But seriously, it was filmed in close collaboration with the United States Air Force. (Much like Mission: Impossible was a collab between US Gov and US Mil units.) It is kind of a fun ride if you're willing to suspend that much disbelief. But I just found it hilarious that a pair of films named and set in Greenland should be produced in this way, while the actual country is in our news cycle now. I almost feel like it's a "PR buzz campaign".

holowoodman 9mo ago

> he behaviour of Telekom is the problem. That must change. The state has to ensure fairness rather than allow monopolies to milk The People. The state is the monopoly here. Telekom is still partially state-owned (~27%), since they were, back in the 90s, privatized from the former total monopoly "Deutsche Bundespost" and the related ministry "Bundespostministerium". Nowadays, the parts of the ministry that were back then regulating EM spectrum, allowable phones (basically phone police, you had to rent from Bundespost or go to jail) and generally being corrupt (relations of the former ministry to copper manufacturers is why they botched the first fibre rollouts in '95 and then ignored the topic for 20 years). Nowadays, the "Regulierungsbehoerde", staffed with the same people, is supposed to regulate their former colleagues at Telekom. Telekom got all the networks and was never split up, so it still has a (~85%?) monopoly on everything copper basically, as well as on customers, using this monopoly to bully other ISPs as well as it's own customers and extending this monopoly into future tech. And the state has a financial interest in this regulation being as lax as possible. So you can imagine how this goes...