5 ms·

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't forcing you to divulge your encryption password compelled speech? So the police can crack my phone but they can't force me to

by throwway120385 9mo ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't forcing you to divulge your encryption password compelled speech? So the police can crack my phone but they can't force me to tell them my PIN.

fn-mote 9mo ago
In the US. But this is irrelevant to the argument made above, right?
dcrazy 9mo ago
Warrants are a mechanism by which speech is legally compelled. The 5th Amendment gives you the right to refuse speech that might implicate you in a crime. It doesn’t protect Microsoft from being compelled to provide information that may implicate one of its customers in a crime.
- salawat 9mo ago
  Indeed. Third Party Doctrine has undermined 4th/5th Amendment protections due to the hair brained power grab that was "if you share info with a third party as art of the only way of doing business, you waive 4th Amendment protections. I ironically, Boomers basically knee-capped Constitutional protections for the very data most critically in need of protection in a network state. Only fix is apparently waiting until enough for to cram through an Amendment/set a precedent to fix it.
  - qingcharles 9mo ago
    Well, SCOTUS has ummed and erred over several cases about whether to extend the 4th Amend to third party data in some scenarios. IIRC there is an online email case working up through 9th Cir right now? One of the reasons giving for (usually) now requiring a warrant to open your phone they grab from you is because of the amount of third-party data you can access through it, although IIRC they framed is a regular 4th Amend issue by saying if you had a security camera inside your house the police would be bypassing the warrant requirement by seeing directly into your abode.
direwolf20 9mo ago
They can't force you to tell them your PIN in some countries, but they can try all PINs, and they can search your desk drawer to find the post-it where you wrote your PIN.
- qingcharles 9mo ago
  They can also hold you in a jail cell until the end of time until you give it up, in many places.
- kstrauser 9mo ago
  Good PINs are ones you're not allowed to brute force. You can easily configure an iPhone to wipe itself after too many wrong guesses. There's a single checkbox labeled "Erase Data", saying "Erase all data on this iPhone after 10 failed passcode attempts." You bet I have that enabled.
  - fylo 9mo ago
    My toddler would wipe my phone with that on
    - kstrauser 9mo ago
      We each have our own threat models. Toddlers are high on that list, to be sure.
thewebguyd 9mo ago
Yes, you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself, but Microsoft is under no such obligation when served a warrant because of third party doctrine. Microsoft holding bitlocker recovery keys is considered you voluntarily giving the information to a third party, so the warrant isn't compelling you to do anything, so not a rights violation. But, the 5th amendment is also why its important to not rely on biometrics. Generally (there are some gray areas) in the US you cannot be compelled to give up your password, but biometrics are viewed as physical evidence and not protected by the 5th.
nly 9mo ago
In the UK they can jail you just for not providing an encryption key
- matja 9mo ago
  RIPA 2000 part III section 49
- paulpauper 9mo ago
  yeah but it's the UK ...prison is a joke there
mmh0000 9mo ago
In theory... In practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher The government gets what the government wants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't forcing you to divulge your encryption password compelled speech? So the police can crack my phone but they can't force me to tell them my PIN.

fn-mote 9mo ago

In the US. But this is irrelevant to the argument made above, right?

dcrazy 9mo ago

Warrants are a mechanism by which speech is legally compelled. The 5th Amendment gives you the right to refuse speech that might implicate you in a crime. It doesn’t protect Microsoft from being compelled to provide information that may implicate one of its customers in a crime.

salawat 9mo ago
Indeed. Third Party Doctrine has undermined 4th/5th Amendment protections due to the hair brained power grab that was "if you share info with a third party as art of the only way of doing business, you waive 4th Amendment protections. I ironically, Boomers basically knee-capped Constitutional protections for the very data most critically in need of protection in a network state. Only fix is apparently waiting until enough for to cram through an Amendment/set a precedent to fix it.
- qingcharles 9mo ago
  Well, SCOTUS has ummed and erred over several cases about whether to extend the 4th Amend to third party data in some scenarios. IIRC there is an online email case working up through 9th Cir right now? One of the reasons giving for (usually) now requiring a warrant to open your phone they grab from you is because of the amount of third-party data you can access through it, although IIRC they framed is a regular 4th Amend issue by saying if you had a security camera inside your house the police would be bypassing the warrant requirement by seeing directly into your abode.

direwolf20 9mo ago

They can't force you to tell them your PIN in some countries, but they can try all PINs, and they can search your desk drawer to find the post-it where you wrote your PIN.

qingcharles 9mo ago
They can also hold you in a jail cell until the end of time until you give it up, in many places.
kstrauser 9mo ago
Good PINs are ones you're not allowed to brute force. You can easily configure an iPhone to wipe itself after too many wrong guesses. There's a single checkbox labeled "Erase Data", saying "Erase all data on this iPhone after 10 failed passcode attempts." You bet I have that enabled.
- fylo 9mo ago
  My toddler would wipe my phone with that on
  - kstrauser 9mo ago
    We each have our own threat models. Toddlers are high on that list, to be sure.

thewebguyd 9mo ago

Yes, you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself, but Microsoft is under no such obligation when served a warrant because of third party doctrine. Microsoft holding bitlocker recovery keys is considered you voluntarily giving the information to a third party, so the warrant isn't compelling you to do anything, so not a rights violation. But, the 5th amendment is also why its important to not rely on biometrics. Generally (there are some gray areas) in the US you cannot be compelled to give up your password, but biometrics are viewed as physical evidence and not protected by the 5th.

nly 9mo ago

In the UK they can jail you just for not providing an encryption key

matja 9mo ago
RIPA 2000 part III section 49
paulpauper 9mo ago
yeah but it's the UK ...prison is a joke there

mmh0000 9mo ago

In theory... In practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher The government gets what the government wants.