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Do we though? It’s an important question about liberty - at what point does a business become so large that it’s not allowed to decide who gets to use it? Ther

Do we though? It’s an important question about liberty - at what point does a business become so large that it’s not allowed to decide who gets to use it? There was a famous case here in the UK of a cake shop that banned a customer for wanting a cake made for a gay wedding because it was contra the owners’ religious beliefs. That was taken all the way up to the Supreme Court IIRC.

ssl-3 9mo ago
I don't think the parent comment was about banning bans based on business size or any other measure, for that's obviously a non-starter. I think it was more about getting rid of unexplained bans. To that end: I think the parent comment was suggesting that when a person is banned from using a thing, then that person deserves to know the reason for the ban -- at the very least, for their own health and sanity. It may still be an absolute and unappealable ban, but unexplained bans don't allow a person learn, adjust, and/or form a cromulent and rational path forward.
- mannykannot 9mo ago
  It is more than that, as there is cold comfort in having an explanation that is arbitrary and capricious, irrational, contrary to the stated rules, or based on falsehoods, if there is no effective means of appeal - especially if there are few or no viable alternatives to the entity imposing the ban.
9rx 9mo ago
Yes, it is not too much to require that that if you offer something to someone that the receiving party is able to have a conversation with you. You can still reject them in the end, but being able to ask the people involved questions is a reasonable expectation — but many of these big tech companies have made it effectively impossible. If you want to live life as a hermit, good on ya, but then maybe accept that life and don't offer other people stuff?
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  Most countries have laws about a minimum level of customer support for things you pay for.
robinsonb5 9mo ago
For me the liberty question you raised there isn't so much about whether the business has become large, as whether it's become "infrastructure". Being denied service by a cake shop may very well be distressing and hurtful, but being suddenly denied service by your bank, your mobile phone provider, or even (especially?) by gmail can turn your entire life upside down.
- urbandw311er 9mo ago
  Yes I’d tend to agree with you there. But being able to define that tipping point where something becomes “infrastructure” even if it’s still privately owned and isn’t a monopoly, is a difficult problem to solve.
pseudony 9mo ago
While I still object to them having a say in that matter (next thing is; we don’t serve darkies) - that is different. There are hundreds of shops to get that cake from. But Anthropic and “Open”AI especially are firing on all bullshit cylinders to convince the world that they are responsible, trustable, but also that they alone can do frontier-level AI, and they don’t like sharing anything. You don’t get to both insert yourself as an indispensable base-layer tool for knowledge-work AND to arbitrarily deny access based on your beliefs (or that of the mentally crippled administration of your host country). You can try, but this is having your cake and eating it too territory, it will backfire.
- fragmede 9mo ago
  The Catholic Church has been doing this for hundreds of years. I'm sure it'll eventually backfire on them, but I doubt any of us will still be alive for that.
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    Atheism has never been more popular. It has backfired.
  - user3939382 9mo ago
    The Catholic Church has been doing what exactly for hundreds of years? Can’t wait to hear it.
qcnguy 9mo ago
That case was in the US.
- songodongo 9mo ago
  Both countries had gay cakes.
PurpleRamen 9mo ago
> at what point does a business become so large that it’s not allowed to decide who gets to use it? It's not about size, it's about justification to fight the ban. You should be able to check if the business has violated your legal rights, or if they even broke their own rules, because failure happens. > There was a famous case here in the UK of a cake shop that banned a customer for wanting a cake made for a gay wedding because it was contra the owners’ religious beliefs. That was taken all the way up to the Supreme Court IIRC. I guess it was this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Ltd_and_others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Lt... There was a similar case in USA too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora...
croes 9mo ago
You missed the 2nd part "and we won't even tell you actual reason for it". The cake shop said why. FB, Google, Anthropic don't say why, so you don't even know what exactly you need to sue for. That is kafkaesque

ssl-3 9mo ago

I don't think the parent comment was about banning bans based on business size or any other measure, for that's obviously a non-starter. I think it was more about getting rid of unexplained bans. To that end: I think the parent comment was suggesting that when a person is banned from using a thing, then that person deserves to know the reason for the ban -- at the very least, for their own health and sanity. It may still be an absolute and unappealable ban, but unexplained bans don't allow a person learn, adjust, and/or form a cromulent and rational path forward.

mannykannot 9mo ago
It is more than that, as there is cold comfort in having an explanation that is arbitrary and capricious, irrational, contrary to the stated rules, or based on falsehoods, if there is no effective means of appeal - especially if there are few or no viable alternatives to the entity imposing the ban.

9rx 9mo ago

Yes, it is not too much to require that that if you offer something to someone that the receiving party is able to have a conversation with you. You can still reject them in the end, but being able to ask the people involved questions is a reasonable expectation — but many of these big tech companies have made it effectively impossible. If you want to live life as a hermit, good on ya, but then maybe accept that life and don't offer other people stuff?

direwolf20 9mo ago
Most countries have laws about a minimum level of customer support for things you pay for.

robinsonb5 9mo ago

For me the liberty question you raised there isn't so much about whether the business has become large, as whether it's become "infrastructure". Being denied service by a cake shop may very well be distressing and hurtful, but being suddenly denied service by your bank, your mobile phone provider, or even (especially?) by gmail can turn your entire life upside down.

urbandw311er 9mo ago
Yes I’d tend to agree with you there. But being able to define that tipping point where something becomes “infrastructure” even if it’s still privately owned and isn’t a monopoly, is a difficult problem to solve.

pseudony 9mo ago

While I still object to them having a say in that matter (next thing is; we don’t serve darkies) - that is different. There are hundreds of shops to get that cake from. But Anthropic and “Open”AI especially are firing on all bullshit cylinders to convince the world that they are responsible, trustable, but also that they alone can do frontier-level AI, and they don’t like sharing anything. You don’t get to both insert yourself as an indispensable base-layer tool for knowledge-work AND to arbitrarily deny access based on your beliefs (or that of the mentally crippled administration of your host country). You can try, but this is having your cake and eating it too territory, it will backfire.

fragmede 9mo ago
The Catholic Church has been doing this for hundreds of years. I'm sure it'll eventually backfire on them, but I doubt any of us will still be alive for that.
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  Atheism has never been more popular. It has backfired.
- user3939382 9mo ago
  The Catholic Church has been doing what exactly for hundreds of years? Can’t wait to hear it.

qcnguy 9mo ago

That case was in the US.

songodongo 9mo ago
Both countries had gay cakes.

PurpleRamen 9mo ago

> at what point does a business become so large that it’s not allowed to decide who gets to use it? It's not about size, it's about justification to fight the ban. You should be able to check if the business has violated your legal rights, or if they even broke their own rules, because failure happens. > There was a famous case here in the UK of a cake shop that banned a customer for wanting a cake made for a gay wedding because it was contra the owners’ religious beliefs. That was taken all the way up to the Supreme Court IIRC. I guess it was this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Ltd_and_others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v_Ashers_Baking_Company_Lt... There was a similar case in USA too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora...

croes 9mo ago

You missed the 2nd part "and we won't even tell you actual reason for it". The cake shop said why. FB, Google, Anthropic don't say why, so you don't even know what exactly you need to sue for. That is kafkaesque