7 ms·

>Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. >Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k

>Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. >Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. This very well may be true, but taken at face value Canada seems to be paying you around $7k to install solar panels on your roof (that's 8k interest free loan is losing out to inflation + any interest it would have earned). Definitely a great deal if you own a home, if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however.

Zigurd 9mo ago
Be less annoyed because utility demand declines.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
testing22321 9mo ago
> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Would you be annoyed if people got subsidized life saving health care? It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. What a shame.
- _aavaa_ 9mo ago
  > As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Yes, and people should be annoyed by this given the underfunding, poor urban planning, and outright hostility by many local governments against anything that dares encroach on the sanctity of car culture.
  - simion314 9mo ago
    >Yes, and people should be annoyed by this So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads.
    - swsieber 9mo ago
      No, in a perfect world, there would be a use tax, and those doing the delivery would pay the cost, and then pass that cost on to you. You might have meant it that way, but it sounded more like a gov. imposed tax based on the price of goods or something.
    - _aavaa_ 9mo ago
      > So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads. "Yet you participate in society, curious!" > In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included There's nothing capitalist about that. Driving around and polluting the environment is currently done for free. That should be taxed. Highways and streets are by and large (in NA) used as a publicly subsidized private good at the expense of everyone else. Subsidized to the detriment of all because it pulls funding away from public transit that would move more people, prioritizing convenience of drivers over the safety of everyone else (to say nothing of it creating dead spaces with nothing but parking as far as the eye can see).
      - simion314 9mo ago
        Public transport uses the roads too. In my country Romania there are road taxes included in the fuel prices and there are vehicle tax that is proportionalw itht eh engine size and vehicle age and how mych it pollutes. So people that drive more use more fuel and pay more tax. If you use your bike then you will not pay that taxes, now what should we tax for the bike lanes ? And how should we convert he fuel road tax for electric cars ?
  - bjackman 9mo ago
    "Car culture" and "public roads" are not the same thing. I'm a militant cyclist and I'm extremely unhappy with the state of urban planning in the world. But... Roads are a really good thing and I'm glad my government builds them. I just wish they'd built them a bit differently, at least in the city.
    - _aavaa_ 9mo ago
      I am not trying to equate the two concepts. Just that in most of North America car culture is what dictate the roads we have and who they’re built for.
- sneak 9mo ago
  Yes, yes, and yes. Is it an intentional mischaracterization to conflate not wanting wealth redistribution with “others not having nice things”? “others not having nice things” is a superset of “others not having unearned nice things”.
  - NetMageSCW 9mo ago
    I don’t see where roads are unearned?
- ApolloFortyNine 9mo ago
  Why are you acting like subsidizing a homeowners free power is like any of these? If I instead phrase it as "I'd rather subsidize someone's health care than pay for your free electricity", would that help you understand that there tends to be a priority system when spending tax dollars? You don't have infinite tax dollars to spend after all.
- JuniperMesos 9mo ago
  > Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Yes we should immediately end these subsidies. > It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. The US as a whole has lots of nice things. And sometimes the things the US has are not as nice as they could be because an unwise subsidy is paying for something inferior, and a small group of people who financially benefit from the subsidy advocate politically against changing it.
embedding-shape 9mo ago
> Definitely a great deal if you own a home, if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. What kind of selfish point of view is this? Don't you want people to use energy sources that are better for our entire world, even if it costs you like $10 more in taxes per year? Seems like a no brainer deal if you like "the outside" and you want it to still be there. I'm a renter, been all my life, I'd be happy to pay more in taxes if it means more solar panels for everyone except me. But I also feel the same about elder care, health care and a bunch of other things, do you feel the same for those things too, or this is specifically about solar or owning vs renting?
- sneak 9mo ago
  There is nothing more unjust than forcing someone to buy something they do not want simply because you think it would be good for them. > Seems like a no brainer deal This is opinion, not fact. I happen to share your opinion, but enshrining opinions in law is almost always going to violate someone’s consent.
  - yen223 9mo ago
    I feel like it's worse to force someone to buy something they do not want, knowing full well it's going to materially harm them
    - sneak 9mo ago
      We are in agreement.
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    > There is nothing more unjust than forcing someone to buy something they do not want simply because you think it would be good for them. Who said that? Taxes are what you pay to be a member of the society you live, and also to help those less fortunate, like your neighbors. You can skip paying those, if you stop living in society, many done that before, and it is still possible.You can't possibly see taxes as "forcing someone to buy something they do not want" right? Two completely different things. And yes, this is all my opinion, like most comments on HN.
henry2023 9mo ago
> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. You probably wouldn’t. I hear more people complaining about hypothetical government spending than actual government spending.
kwanbix 9mo ago
Yeah, truly awful. Unlimited electricity that barely contaminates, and at the lowest possible cost for everyone. Just terrible.
matthewdgreen 9mo ago
If you're a renter/condo then you're probably getting excess solar generation delivered to you from homeowners with nearby solar roofs. So presumably there is some benefit to you in terms of cheap generation.
- bjackman 9mo ago
  Also... Fewer houses using fossil-fueled power on Earth. If you live on Earth that's pretty good. The answer to this isn't "less subsidies" it's "find a way to make everyone benefit from the subsidies.
pimeys 9mo ago
In Germany you are allowed to install solar to your balcony as a renter.
epolanski 9mo ago
Your last argument could apply to anything really. Why should I subsidize farmers if they can't compete? Why do I have subsidize our own manufacturing companies if they can't compete so their workers have a job, at my expense? Why do I need to subsidize car owners to have yet another lane but can't get a decent train instead? Here in Poland suddenly all miners pretend to be subsidized by the state, even if they work for private companies. Why do I need to subsidize them if the companies they work for can't turn a profit, or when they did for decades chose to pay dividends and do buybacks instead of investing? And now I pay the bill? I mean, at some point you need to cope with the fact that money has to be spent and circulate in some fashion to promote economic activity and projects. You could argue that subsidizing solar brings energy prices down in any case.

Zigurd 9mo ago

Be less annoyed because utility demand declines.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

testing22321 9mo ago

> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Would you be annoyed if people got subsidized life saving health care? It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. What a shame.

_aavaa_ 9mo ago
> As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Yes, and people should be annoyed by this given the underfunding, poor urban planning, and outright hostility by many local governments against anything that dares encroach on the sanctity of car culture.
- simion314 9mo ago
  >Yes, and people should be annoyed by this So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads.
  - swsieber 9mo ago
    No, in a perfect world, there would be a use tax, and those doing the delivery would pay the cost, and then pass that cost on to you. You might have meant it that way, but it sounded more like a gov. imposed tax based on the price of goods or something.
  - _aavaa_ 9mo ago
    > So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads. "Yet you participate in society, curious!" > In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included There's nothing capitalist about that. Driving around and polluting the environment is currently done for free. That should be taxed. Highways and streets are by and large (in NA) used as a publicly subsidized private good at the expense of everyone else. Subsidized to the detriment of all because it pulls funding away from public transit that would move more people, prioritizing convenience of drivers over the safety of everyone else (to say nothing of it creating dead spaces with nothing but parking as far as the eye can see).
    - simion314 9mo ago
      Public transport uses the roads too. In my country Romania there are road taxes included in the fuel prices and there are vehicle tax that is proportionalw itht eh engine size and vehicle age and how mych it pollutes. So people that drive more use more fuel and pay more tax. If you use your bike then you will not pay that taxes, now what should we tax for the bike lanes ? And how should we convert he fuel road tax for electric cars ?
- bjackman 9mo ago
  "Car culture" and "public roads" are not the same thing. I'm a militant cyclist and I'm extremely unhappy with the state of urban planning in the world. But... Roads are a really good thing and I'm glad my government builds them. I just wish they'd built them a bit differently, at least in the city.
  - _aavaa_ 9mo ago
    I am not trying to equate the two concepts. Just that in most of North America car culture is what dictate the roads we have and who they’re built for.
sneak 9mo ago
Yes, yes, and yes. Is it an intentional mischaracterization to conflate not wanting wealth redistribution with “others not having nice things”? “others not having nice things” is a superset of “others not having unearned nice things”.
- NetMageSCW 9mo ago
  I don’t see where roads are unearned?
ApolloFortyNine 9mo ago
Why are you acting like subsidizing a homeowners free power is like any of these? If I instead phrase it as "I'd rather subsidize someone's health care than pay for your free electricity", would that help you understand that there tends to be a priority system when spending tax dollars? You don't have infinite tax dollars to spend after all.
JuniperMesos 9mo ago
> Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Yes we should immediately end these subsidies. > It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. The US as a whole has lots of nice things. And sometimes the things the US has are not as nice as they could be because an unwise subsidy is paying for something inferior, and a small group of people who financially benefit from the subsidy advocate politically against changing it.

embedding-shape 9mo ago

> Definitely a great deal if you own a home, if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. What kind of selfish point of view is this? Don't you want people to use energy sources that are better for our entire world, even if it costs you like $10 more in taxes per year? Seems like a no brainer deal if you like "the outside" and you want it to still be there. I'm a renter, been all my life, I'd be happy to pay more in taxes if it means more solar panels for everyone except me. But I also feel the same about elder care, health care and a bunch of other things, do you feel the same for those things too, or this is specifically about solar or owning vs renting?

sneak 9mo ago
There is nothing more unjust than forcing someone to buy something they do not want simply because you think it would be good for them. > Seems like a no brainer deal This is opinion, not fact. I happen to share your opinion, but enshrining opinions in law is almost always going to violate someone’s consent.
- yen223 9mo ago
  I feel like it's worse to force someone to buy something they do not want, knowing full well it's going to materially harm them
  - sneak 9mo ago
    We are in agreement.
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > There is nothing more unjust than forcing someone to buy something they do not want simply because you think it would be good for them. Who said that? Taxes are what you pay to be a member of the society you live, and also to help those less fortunate, like your neighbors. You can skip paying those, if you stop living in society, many done that before, and it is still possible.You can't possibly see taxes as "forcing someone to buy something they do not want" right? Two completely different things. And yes, this is all my opinion, like most comments on HN.

henry2023 9mo ago

> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. You probably wouldn’t. I hear more people complaining about hypothetical government spending than actual government spending.

kwanbix 9mo ago

Yeah, truly awful. Unlimited electricity that barely contaminates, and at the lowest possible cost for everyone. Just terrible.

matthewdgreen 9mo ago

If you're a renter/condo then you're probably getting excess solar generation delivered to you from homeowners with nearby solar roofs. So presumably there is some benefit to you in terms of cheap generation.

bjackman 9mo ago
Also... Fewer houses using fossil-fueled power on Earth. If you live on Earth that's pretty good. The answer to this isn't "less subsidies" it's "find a way to make everyone benefit from the subsidies.

pimeys 9mo ago

In Germany you are allowed to install solar to your balcony as a renter.

epolanski 9mo ago

Your last argument could apply to anything really. Why should I subsidize farmers if they can't compete? Why do I have subsidize our own manufacturing companies if they can't compete so their workers have a job, at my expense? Why do I need to subsidize car owners to have yet another lane but can't get a decent train instead? Here in Poland suddenly all miners pretend to be subsidized by the state, even if they work for private companies. Why do I need to subsidize them if the companies they work for can't turn a profit, or when they did for decades chose to pay dividends and do buybacks instead of investing? And now I pay the bill? I mean, at some point you need to cope with the fact that money has to be spent and circulate in some fashion to promote economic activity and projects. You could argue that subsidizing solar brings energy prices down in any case.