5 ms·
Renewables lead to energy independence and a more distributed energy grid. It's fundamental to security, and can't be so easily measured in terms of money. The
by torlok 9mo ago
Renewables lead to energy independence and a more distributed energy grid. It's fundamental to security, and can't be so easily measured in terms of money. The EU is increasing its independence from China via initiatives like the Net-Zero Industry Act. And this talk of "politicians being bought by Chinese companies" is laughable in the face of what oil companies are doing, to the benefit of exporters like USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and other regimes, and definitively not the EU.
- altern8 9mo agoI'm not sure, I'm in Poland and all we had was coal. Now it will take a few decades to have our own source of power again. Maybe 20-30 years..? What are oil companies doing to drive European companies out of business (not saying they aren't, I just don't know)?
- pjc50 9mo agoPoland still has majority coal power production! It's one of last places you can possibly blame renewables for pricing.
- altern8 9mo agoWell, green initiatives made us stop using coal. Also, we've started exporting because of carbon credits--which caused prices to skyrocket.
- Moldoteck 9mo agoprices in poland are dictated by coal. Coal got insanely expensive due to co2 taxes
- altern8 9mo agoCorrect. Exactly my point.
- pfdietz 9mo agoSo, it's not renewables fault, it's that you're no longer getting away with distributing your negative externality over the world for free. I'm sure my sewer bill would be a lot lower if I could just pipe my sewage into your garden.
- Moldoteck 9mo agoCo2 tax is less about externality and more about putting this extra money into renewables. When ren are underperforming but bidding low prices, they will still be compensated by the merit order which is artificially bumped even higher with CO2 tax. And the worst thing is other regions like US or China don't have such a tax, causing industry offshoring. It's a noble case to want to subsidize ren sector, but this method is hurting EU more than helping
- pfdietz 9mo agoThey could put the money into renewables, but there's nothing mandatory about that policy choice. The idea of a Pigouvian tax is to eliminate the market distortion negative externalities create. In general, you want to tax things you don't want, like pollution, not things you want, like productive work.
- Moldoteck 9mo agoyes, but since this tax is done only at EU level, it causes industry offshoring and $ redistribution. EU could have just subsidized ren more instead of this tax. This way electricity/production prices would be lower while ren tech still supported
- pfdietz 9mo agoIndustry offshoring is dealt with via CO2 tariffs, which the EU has also introduced. Subsidizing production is itself a market distortion.
- torlok 9mo agoI'm from Poland too and the only thing we have is land, the sun, and wind. Coal poisons the air we breathe, and hurts the climate our children will live in. It's not about money, it's about security. The worst thing for polish security is being dependent on foreign oil and gas, and to be reliant on a few power plants that are an easy target for russian drones, and rely on water from rivers that are running dry more and more often. The transition away from coal should've come much, much sooner. When you hear a push back against renewables, and people praising oil and gas, who's benefiting from this? Poland, or oil suppliers like Russia?
- altern8 9mo agoI like nuclear. But I think it's a huge investment that would take decades.
- torlok 9mo agoI'm fine with supplementing with nuclear, but it's still a single point of failure, and needs water. France and Switzerland had to shut down nuclear plants last year because the rivers got too hot. This issue is not going away.