6 ms·

Well, OK--but at what cost? Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S., and as a result EVERYTHING is more expens

by altern8 9mo ago

Well, OK--but at what cost? Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S., and as a result EVERYTHING is more expensive. Mix that with lower buying power and taxes and we spend 2-3 times for stuff. I would think that most people would happily choose lower prices over clean energy and paper straws. Our companies are also less and less competitive because of these initiatives, and companies from China take over in part thanks to the complete lack if environmental and labor laws over there. Seems to me like this is happening more and more, and it's so widespread and obvious that it almost makes you think that politicians are being bought by Chinese companies/government.

torlok 9mo ago
Renewables lead to energy independence and a more distributed energy grid. It's fundamental to security, and can't be so easily measured in terms of money. The EU is increasing its independence from China via initiatives like the Net-Zero Industry Act. And this talk of "politicians being bought by Chinese companies" is laughable in the face of what oil companies are doing, to the benefit of exporters like USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and other regimes, and definitively not the EU.
- altern8 9mo ago
  I'm not sure, I'm in Poland and all we had was coal. Now it will take a few decades to have our own source of power again. Maybe 20-30 years..? What are oil companies doing to drive European companies out of business (not saying they aren't, I just don't know)?
  - pjc50 9mo ago
    Poland still has majority coal power production! It's one of last places you can possibly blame renewables for pricing.
    - altern8 9mo ago
      Well, green initiatives made us stop using coal. Also, we've started exporting because of carbon credits--which caused prices to skyrocket.
    - Moldoteck 9mo ago
      prices in poland are dictated by coal. Coal got insanely expensive due to co2 taxes
      - altern8 9mo ago
        Correct. Exactly my point.
        pfdietz 9mo ago
        So, it's not renewables fault, it's that you're no longer getting away with distributing your negative externality over the world for free. I'm sure my sewer bill would be a lot lower if I could just pipe my sewage into your garden.
        Moldoteck 9mo ago
        Co2 tax is less about externality and more about putting this extra money into renewables. When ren are underperforming but bidding low prices, they will still be compensated by the merit order which is artificially bumped even higher with CO2 tax. And the worst thing is other regions like US or China don't have such a tax, causing industry offshoring. It's a noble case to want to subsidize ren sector, but this method is hurting EU more than helping
        pfdietz 9mo ago
        They could put the money into renewables, but there's nothing mandatory about that policy choice. The idea of a Pigouvian tax is to eliminate the market distortion negative externalities create. In general, you want to tax things you don't want, like pollution, not things you want, like productive work.
  - torlok 9mo ago
    I'm from Poland too and the only thing we have is land, the sun, and wind. Coal poisons the air we breathe, and hurts the climate our children will live in. It's not about money, it's about security. The worst thing for polish security is being dependent on foreign oil and gas, and to be reliant on a few power plants that are an easy target for russian drones, and rely on water from rivers that are running dry more and more often. The transition away from coal should've come much, much sooner. When you hear a push back against renewables, and people praising oil and gas, who's benefiting from this? Poland, or oil suppliers like Russia?
    - altern8 9mo ago
      I like nuclear. But I think it's a huge investment that would take decades.
      - torlok 9mo ago
        I'm fine with supplementing with nuclear, but it's still a single point of failure, and needs water. France and Switzerland had to shut down nuclear plants last year because the rivers got too hot. This issue is not going away.
p0pularopinion 9mo ago
> Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S. Maybe because Europe as a whole has little to no signifcant oil reserves ready for extraction? Very much unlike the US. > I would think that most people would happily choose lower prices over clean energy and paper straws. The US does have plenty of cheap energy and yet its industrial output is dwarfed by Chinas, which is increasingly relying on domestically products green tech. Also, people seem to be not very concerned with energy prices. If they were, they would not act as irrational when it comes to topics like heatpumps or electric vehicles. > that it almost makes you think that politicians are being bought by Chinese companies/government. Looking at the energy policy of some countries (Germany specifically), it seems vastly more likely that politicans are bought by oil companies.
- altern8 9mo ago
  True, there is no oil and we just relied on cheap gas from Russia--which I guess it didn't turn out to be a good strategy after all. That's interesting about oil companies. Is that who's lobbing to pass laws that just seem (to me) to be written on purpose to make our companies less competitive? How does that work, how do oil companies profit from that?
  - direwolf20 9mo ago
    If you can sell more oil and at a higher price, you get more money.
    - altern8 9mo ago
      OK, but how, they lobby to pass laws against coal and nuclear, so that you burn more oil..?
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        Yes, and against bike lanes so more people have to drive, and against subsidies for public transport, and against public transport entirely, and so on.
pranavj 9mo ago
EU electricity prices are high, but attributing this to renewables is backwards. Wholesale electricity prices drop when wind and solar are producing - that's been documented extensively. The high prices are largely due to: (1) gas setting marginal prices during peak hours, (2) grid infrastructure that hasn't kept pace, and (3) taxes/levies that fund the transition. As battery storage grows and reduces gas dependency for peaks, prices should moderate. The countries with the highest renewable penetration (Spain, Portugal) often have lower prices than those still dependent on gas imports.
- altern8 9mo ago
  I'm not attributing to renewables, but green initiatives. For instance, the rising prices of carbon permits under the EU emissions trading scheme. So, my point is that countries that don't ignore the economy just to be green--like the U.S. and specially China--seem to have vastly cheaper electricity and gasoline, which I would guess makes them more competitive/lowers prices. Over here we have no NG and no oil, and on top of that we tax our companies because of emission limits, while in China they burn coal like there is no tomorrow. We wanted to outlaw non-electric cars, while the car industry in Europe is huge and we don't have a way to build batteries, etc. etc. Seems to be a pattern that is hard to understand.
  - dgb23 9mo ago
    China is has started to trend their fossil fuel consumption downwards since last year and have a similar per capita consumption as Europe.
mrweasel 9mo ago
> Well, OK--but at what cost? It costs less? The Danish organisation for green energy interest (biased I known) has calculations that shows a 5 billion DKK saving per year for the Danish consumers. So about €0.02 per kWh. I also think you're wrong about prices. I think most will pay more, if they get clean energy. Not a lot more, but if it's only a few cents, I think many/most will pay that, perhaps not happily, but still. People, in parts of Europe at least, are perhaps more baffled that the Americans won't pay the slightly higher cost and and protect the environment. As it happens that's not a choice we need to make, wind and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuel.
- altern8 9mo ago
  I'm not sure, prices here in Poland have skyrocketed because of the EU green initiative and we started exporting and prices went up 3-4 times. I'm good with protecting the environment. Here, though, we're making European companies less competitive. They shut down, and Chinese companies fill the gap, flooding us with products that are worse for the environments because they have no laws, bad for workers because they have no laws, and bad for the environment again because instead of local they're shipped across continents on boats that burn as much fuel as a whole country for a year just to bring cheap plastic stuff that we used to make better ourselves.
  - mrweasel 9mo ago
    Arguing that European business should be allowed to pollute the environment more, because that's what China does is a little backwards I think. In my mind we should enforce the rules on a per product basis, rather than per country. Where a product is made shouldn't matter, a product should be taxed based on the pollution it has generated, shipping included. Want to sell to the EU: Workers can only work e.g. 40 hours a week, must have five weeks of vacation per year and here are the tax rates for various types of pollution.
    - altern8 9mo ago
      Yes, this would be good but I have a feeling it will never happen.

by altern8 9mo ago

torlok 9mo ago

Renewables lead to energy independence and a more distributed energy grid. It's fundamental to security, and can't be so easily measured in terms of money. The EU is increasing its independence from China via initiatives like the Net-Zero Industry Act. And this talk of "politicians being bought by Chinese companies" is laughable in the face of what oil companies are doing, to the benefit of exporters like USA, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and other regimes, and definitively not the EU.

altern8 9mo ago
I'm not sure, I'm in Poland and all we had was coal. Now it will take a few decades to have our own source of power again. Maybe 20-30 years..? What are oil companies doing to drive European companies out of business (not saying they aren't, I just don't know)?
- pjc50 9mo ago
  Poland still has majority coal power production! It's one of last places you can possibly blame renewables for pricing.
  - altern8 9mo ago
    Well, green initiatives made us stop using coal. Also, we've started exporting because of carbon credits--which caused prices to skyrocket.
  - Moldoteck 9mo ago
    prices in poland are dictated by coal. Coal got insanely expensive due to co2 taxes
    - altern8 9mo ago
      Correct. Exactly my point.
      - pfdietz 9mo ago
        So, it's not renewables fault, it's that you're no longer getting away with distributing your negative externality over the world for free. I'm sure my sewer bill would be a lot lower if I could just pipe my sewage into your garden.
        Moldoteck 9mo ago
        Co2 tax is less about externality and more about putting this extra money into renewables. When ren are underperforming but bidding low prices, they will still be compensated by the merit order which is artificially bumped even higher with CO2 tax. And the worst thing is other regions like US or China don't have such a tax, causing industry offshoring. It's a noble case to want to subsidize ren sector, but this method is hurting EU more than helping
        pfdietz 9mo ago
        They could put the money into renewables, but there's nothing mandatory about that policy choice. The idea of a Pigouvian tax is to eliminate the market distortion negative externalities create. In general, you want to tax things you don't want, like pollution, not things you want, like productive work.
- torlok 9mo ago
  I'm from Poland too and the only thing we have is land, the sun, and wind. Coal poisons the air we breathe, and hurts the climate our children will live in. It's not about money, it's about security. The worst thing for polish security is being dependent on foreign oil and gas, and to be reliant on a few power plants that are an easy target for russian drones, and rely on water from rivers that are running dry more and more often. The transition away from coal should've come much, much sooner. When you hear a push back against renewables, and people praising oil and gas, who's benefiting from this? Poland, or oil suppliers like Russia?
  - altern8 9mo ago
    I like nuclear. But I think it's a huge investment that would take decades.
    - torlok 9mo ago
      I'm fine with supplementing with nuclear, but it's still a single point of failure, and needs water. France and Switzerland had to shut down nuclear plants last year because the rivers got too hot. This issue is not going away.

p0pularopinion 9mo ago

> Electricity/heating and gasoline in the EU is many times more expensive than in the U.S. Maybe because Europe as a whole has little to no signifcant oil reserves ready for extraction? Very much unlike the US. > I would think that most people would happily choose lower prices over clean energy and paper straws. The US does have plenty of cheap energy and yet its industrial output is dwarfed by Chinas, which is increasingly relying on domestically products green tech. Also, people seem to be not very concerned with energy prices. If they were, they would not act as irrational when it comes to topics like heatpumps or electric vehicles. > that it almost makes you think that politicians are being bought by Chinese companies/government. Looking at the energy policy of some countries (Germany specifically), it seems vastly more likely that politicans are bought by oil companies.

altern8 9mo ago
True, there is no oil and we just relied on cheap gas from Russia--which I guess it didn't turn out to be a good strategy after all. That's interesting about oil companies. Is that who's lobbing to pass laws that just seem (to me) to be written on purpose to make our companies less competitive? How does that work, how do oil companies profit from that?
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  If you can sell more oil and at a higher price, you get more money.
  - altern8 9mo ago
    OK, but how, they lobby to pass laws against coal and nuclear, so that you burn more oil..?
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      Yes, and against bike lanes so more people have to drive, and against subsidies for public transport, and against public transport entirely, and so on.

pranavj 9mo ago

EU electricity prices are high, but attributing this to renewables is backwards. Wholesale electricity prices drop when wind and solar are producing - that's been documented extensively. The high prices are largely due to: (1) gas setting marginal prices during peak hours, (2) grid infrastructure that hasn't kept pace, and (3) taxes/levies that fund the transition. As battery storage grows and reduces gas dependency for peaks, prices should moderate. The countries with the highest renewable penetration (Spain, Portugal) often have lower prices than those still dependent on gas imports.

altern8 9mo ago
I'm not attributing to renewables, but green initiatives. For instance, the rising prices of carbon permits under the EU emissions trading scheme. So, my point is that countries that don't ignore the economy just to be green--like the U.S. and specially China--seem to have vastly cheaper electricity and gasoline, which I would guess makes them more competitive/lowers prices. Over here we have no NG and no oil, and on top of that we tax our companies because of emission limits, while in China they burn coal like there is no tomorrow. We wanted to outlaw non-electric cars, while the car industry in Europe is huge and we don't have a way to build batteries, etc. etc. Seems to be a pattern that is hard to understand.
- dgb23 9mo ago
  China is has started to trend their fossil fuel consumption downwards since last year and have a similar per capita consumption as Europe.

mrweasel 9mo ago

> Well, OK--but at what cost? It costs less? The Danish organisation for green energy interest (biased I known) has calculations that shows a 5 billion DKK saving per year for the Danish consumers. So about €0.02 per kWh. I also think you're wrong about prices. I think most will pay more, if they get clean energy. Not a lot more, but if it's only a few cents, I think many/most will pay that, perhaps not happily, but still. People, in parts of Europe at least, are perhaps more baffled that the Americans won't pay the slightly higher cost and and protect the environment. As it happens that's not a choice we need to make, wind and solar is now cheaper than fossil fuel.

altern8 9mo ago
I'm not sure, prices here in Poland have skyrocketed because of the EU green initiative and we started exporting and prices went up 3-4 times. I'm good with protecting the environment. Here, though, we're making European companies less competitive. They shut down, and Chinese companies fill the gap, flooding us with products that are worse for the environments because they have no laws, bad for workers because they have no laws, and bad for the environment again because instead of local they're shipped across continents on boats that burn as much fuel as a whole country for a year just to bring cheap plastic stuff that we used to make better ourselves.
- mrweasel 9mo ago
  Arguing that European business should be allowed to pollute the environment more, because that's what China does is a little backwards I think. In my mind we should enforce the rules on a per product basis, rather than per country. Where a product is made shouldn't matter, a product should be taxed based on the pollution it has generated, shipping included. Want to sell to the EU: Workers can only work e.g. 40 hours a week, must have five weeks of vacation per year and here are the tax rates for various types of pollution.
  - altern8 9mo ago
    Yes, this would be good but I have a feeling it will never happen.