4 ms·

* “all your money lives on the internet and it’s safe” * “internet voting is insecure” who wins?

jpollock 9mo ago
Internet voting needs to be anonymous and non demonstrable. Internet money needs to be the opposite, and reversible through the courts.
- terminalshort 9mo ago
  It can't be anonymous. There has to be some form of IDV to ensure it is a registered voter.
  - FeteCommuniste 9mo ago
    The vote needs to be anonymous, not the registration + checkin process.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - phanimahesh 9mo ago
      When digital content can be duplicated with ease, it is difficult to guarantee verified voter but untraceable vote.
  - dghlsakjg 9mo ago
    The ballot has to be anonymous, or unable to be tied back to the voter once cast. It’s a hard requirement for a variety of reasons
    - seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
      You have to trust the voting place/ballot receiver in all cases. Like, after they take your name, you need to make sure that they aren't secretly associating your name with the ballot you are filling in. Likewise, if you vote by mail, you need to make sure that they aren't associating your identity on the envelope with the anonymous ballot inside the envelope.
      - closewith 9mo ago
        This is a solved problem for in-person voting with indentical ballots and self-depositing into sealed ballot boxes. It is an unsolvable problem for mail in voting, which is why it should be prohibited in most cases.
        dghlsakjg 9mo ago
        It’s also a solved problem for mail in. Double envelope systems, observable counting systems and standardized ballots that can checked for non uniqueness before voting are how they do it. People have thought hard about this, and it has worked fine for may states for decades now.
        closewith 9mo ago
        That only solves the double-counting problem, and it's fundamentally impossible to solve the voter ID and voter manipulation problems with postal voting.
        seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
        Except for older republicans and military members in almost all states?
        closewith 9mo ago
        I'm not American, so I don't understand the older republican comment, but except in exceptionally adverse circumstances (astronauts on the ISS or submariners, etc) the military can provide ballot boxes to it's personnel.
        dghlsakjg 9mo ago
        Military and overseas voters vote in their home state elections, even federally (all elections are held by states, even for federal candidates). You would need to ensure that there is a ballot box representing each state that has an eligible voter at a given site, and then need to figure out logistics for getting thousands of sealed boxes back to the vote counters in each state within the allotted deadline. You would also need to solve the issue of maintaining vote anonymity at low volumes. Or, you could have a central, federally run organization that takes responsibility for delivering sealed ballots to the respective states in a timely manner. Which is what we call voting by mail.
  - Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
    Indeed, many people now get a erroneous covid tax-relief refund bill for not qualifying for a program they never signed up for in the first place. One local scammer made off with a $5m government refund for a fraudulent business tax filing. You can't make this stuff up if you tried... At some point, one is just amazed at the size of the cons people pull online. =3
- VladVladikoff 9mo ago
  >Internet voting needs to be anonymous and non demonstrable Why? Honestly Internet voting would improve overall turnout, which seems more important. And we probably could accomplish anonymity with some clever cryptography.
  - jpollock 9mo ago
    Anonymity keeps the government from locking you up if you vote the wrong way. Non-demonstrable keeps you from selling your vote to your boss. That is why you typically show id, get a ballot and there is no relationship between the two.
    - VladVladikoff 9mo ago
      I could still sell my vote to my boss in the typical system. And we could use cryptography to vote anonymously after authentication online.
      - indecisive_user 9mo ago
        In the current system how do you sell your vote? You go into the voting booth alone.
        drchaos 9mo ago
        "I give you $50 if you vote for me, you'll get it when I win the ballot" If someone is willing to sell their vote in the first place, they have zero incentive to vote for another candidate. They only have to trust the buyer to follow up on his promise (which is required in any other scenario also).
- bigger_cheese 9mo ago
  I think it is very difficult to secure internet voting, someone can stand behind you and twist your arm or otherwise coerce you to vote for their candidate. Much harder to do when there are observers and witnesses at the polling booth.
camillomiller 9mo ago
[flagged]
subscribed 9mo ago
Second is also possible in jurisdictions that issue id cards with cryptographic layer AND ability with the companion app to only prove a scope of the identity. Without saying too much about my home country I believe it's doable.
- elbci 9mo ago
  [dead]
elbci 9mo ago
[dead]
autoexec 9mo ago
* “internet voting is insecure” wins because your internet money is not safe. Hackers get into people's bank accounts all the time. It's actually amazing to me how many people here somehow think that internet banking is anything but massively insecure.

Internet voting needs to be anonymous and non demonstrable. Internet money needs to be the opposite, and reversible through the courts.

terminalshort 9mo ago
It can't be anonymous. There has to be some form of IDV to ensure it is a registered voter.
- FeteCommuniste 9mo ago
  The vote needs to be anonymous, not the registration + checkin process.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - phanimahesh 9mo ago
    When digital content can be duplicated with ease, it is difficult to guarantee verified voter but untraceable vote.
- dghlsakjg 9mo ago
  The ballot has to be anonymous, or unable to be tied back to the voter once cast. It’s a hard requirement for a variety of reasons
  - seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
    You have to trust the voting place/ballot receiver in all cases. Like, after they take your name, you need to make sure that they aren't secretly associating your name with the ballot you are filling in. Likewise, if you vote by mail, you need to make sure that they aren't associating your identity on the envelope with the anonymous ballot inside the envelope.
    - closewith 9mo ago
      This is a solved problem for in-person voting with indentical ballots and self-depositing into sealed ballot boxes. It is an unsolvable problem for mail in voting, which is why it should be prohibited in most cases.
      - dghlsakjg 9mo ago
        It’s also a solved problem for mail in. Double envelope systems, observable counting systems and standardized ballots that can checked for non uniqueness before voting are how they do it. People have thought hard about this, and it has worked fine for may states for decades now.
        closewith 9mo ago
        That only solves the double-counting problem, and it's fundamentally impossible to solve the voter ID and voter manipulation problems with postal voting.
      - seanmcdirmid 9mo ago
        Except for older republicans and military members in almost all states?
        closewith 9mo ago
        I'm not American, so I don't understand the older republican comment, but except in exceptionally adverse circumstances (astronauts on the ISS or submariners, etc) the military can provide ballot boxes to it's personnel.
        dghlsakjg 9mo ago
        Military and overseas voters vote in their home state elections, even federally (all elections are held by states, even for federal candidates). You would need to ensure that there is a ballot box representing each state that has an eligible voter at a given site, and then need to figure out logistics for getting thousands of sealed boxes back to the vote counters in each state within the allotted deadline. You would also need to solve the issue of maintaining vote anonymity at low volumes. Or, you could have a central, federally run organization that takes responsibility for delivering sealed ballots to the respective states in a timely manner. Which is what we call voting by mail.
- Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
  Indeed, many people now get a erroneous covid tax-relief refund bill for not qualifying for a program they never signed up for in the first place. One local scammer made off with a $5m government refund for a fraudulent business tax filing. You can't make this stuff up if you tried... At some point, one is just amazed at the size of the cons people pull online. =3
VladVladikoff 9mo ago
>Internet voting needs to be anonymous and non demonstrable Why? Honestly Internet voting would improve overall turnout, which seems more important. And we probably could accomplish anonymity with some clever cryptography.
- jpollock 9mo ago
  Anonymity keeps the government from locking you up if you vote the wrong way. Non-demonstrable keeps you from selling your vote to your boss. That is why you typically show id, get a ballot and there is no relationship between the two.
  - VladVladikoff 9mo ago
    I could still sell my vote to my boss in the typical system. And we could use cryptography to vote anonymously after authentication online.
    - indecisive_user 9mo ago
      In the current system how do you sell your vote? You go into the voting booth alone.
      - drchaos 9mo ago
        "I give you $50 if you vote for me, you'll get it when I win the ballot" If someone is willing to sell their vote in the first place, they have zero incentive to vote for another candidate. They only have to trust the buyer to follow up on his promise (which is required in any other scenario also).
bigger_cheese 9mo ago
I think it is very difficult to secure internet voting, someone can stand behind you and twist your arm or otherwise coerce you to vote for their candidate. Much harder to do when there are observers and witnesses at the polling booth.

camillomiller 9mo ago

[flagged]

subscribed 9mo ago

Second is also possible in jurisdictions that issue id cards with cryptographic layer AND ability with the companion app to only prove a scope of the identity. Without saying too much about my home country I believe it's doable.

elbci 9mo ago
[dead]

elbci 9mo ago

[dead]

autoexec 9mo ago

* “internet voting is insecure” wins because your internet money is not safe. Hackers get into people's bank accounts all the time. It's actually amazing to me how many people here somehow think that internet banking is anything but massively insecure.