10 ms·

Minnesota Gives Coursera the Boot, Citing a Decades-Old Law

104 points by mbrubeck 14y ago

truebecomefalse 14y ago
This is so backwards but so are many of the laws that are on the books in many states.
- rayiner 14y ago
  It's not a backwards law, it's a silly application of the law. The consumer protection angle is as valid today as it was decades ago, it's just irrelevant in the context of an entity that doesn't charge anything.
- mangler 14y ago
  This is 'backward' until you meet a bunch of doctors who claim to cure cancer using cucumber juice and find that they all have PhDs and MDs from the University of Tantric Study and Life Exploration, Middlesex Town Massahoma. People in trouble DO fall for this bs.
  - scarmig 14y ago
    That's optimistic. There are plenty of quacks out there who claim to cure cancer using things like "black salve," which regularly causes permanent disfigurement and sometimes death. (Googlers beware.)
  - polymatter 14y ago
    I find it very hard to believe anyone can possibly be confused here. Coursera is not a university, doesn't look or pretend to be a university. It doesn't grant PhDs, MDs, or indeed anything beyond a simple certificate that isn't even valid as college credit. They go to some length on every single course page to explain this. Some courses don't even give you a certificate. The website doesn't talk about certification it talks about "Advance your knowledge and career". There is a big tab that says "Universities" so I can't see how you could think Coursera was a university.
  - ef4 14y ago
    But people who are desperate and gullible don't check references. The scammer can just as easily claim to have an MD they never earned from a legitimate school, or an MD from a school that doesn't exist, or one that has never received approval to teach in any particular state. School accreditation really isn't an effective solution to the problem you pose.
  - mcguire 14y ago
    How much would you care to bet that the University of Tantric Study and Life Exploration, Middlesex Town Massahoma, would have all of the approvals necessary?
ca136 14y ago
Probably more positives here for Coursera than negatives. It'll get them more press and won't stop anyone from taking classes. Hopefully it'll even make someone in the MN Office of Higher Education realize they need to update their policies.
far33d 14y ago
Why doesn't coursera take the same approach as Uber and respectfully disagree to comply?
- mentat 14y ago
  aka operate illegally?
  - shrughes 14y ago
    Or win on 1st amendment grounds.
    - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
      Not even close; Minnesota isn't saying that Coursera cannot operate in Minnesota, just that it cannot do so without approval -- just like how you don't have the right to have a huge demonstration without proper permits. There is well-established precedent that it is acceptable to have minor hurdles in the expression of free speech in the interest of maintaining an orderly society. Edit: also, the problem is that they are calling it a "college course", this is a simple consumer protection issue..
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        My impression is that they can get away with requiring permits for demonstrations because there are physical space considerations, public safety, etc. Imagine if a state decided you needed a permit to write for a political blog. Same content as a protest may have, but without the meatspace messiness.
        rayiner 14y ago
        Coursera isn't a political blog, it's a commercial service (even if provided for no fee).
        14y ago
gojomo 14y ago
I bet a compromise could be worked out if Coursera agrees to make instructional materials available via 'gopher'.
Tycho 14y ago
If the government was serious about cutting budget deficits, it would immediately discontinue the purchase of textbooks, switch to ereaders (there's a company in Europe selling basic eInk readers for £8), make use of out-of-copyright reading material, abandon the practice of lecturers performing the exact same lecture term after term when a recording will do, partner with companies like Coursera to provide curriculums, move towards homework and exams that can be marked by a computer rather than by hand... And generally just run education in a way that reflects the technology we have at our disposal.
- aaronblohowiak 14y ago
  California is taking the lead in this, yet again.. http://www.clrn.org/fdti/ http://www.clrn.org/fdti/
  - mangler 14y ago
    Thank you Terminator!!! We knew you'd do a great job!...
- scarmig 14y ago
  All of those ideas are certainly good things. But even if they managed to decrease the eduction budget to $0, that wouldn't make a dent in government deficits (in the USA, at least, and I suspect elsewhere). They're driven primarily by unfunded entitlement spending and to a lesser extent by the military budget.
  - dkokelley 14y ago
    I think you are confusing the federal and state governments. The federal government spends most of its budget on defense and entitlements. Only a smaller portion goes on to education (usually in the form of grants and subsidies to the state). Education happens at the state level. For example, California's proposed budget for 2012-2013 (http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/SummaryC...) spends $50 of the $141 billion total budget on education (k-12 and higher education). Compare that to the < 2% ($72 billion) that the US federal budget will spend in the department of education. (Note: Consider that California alone spends 5/7ths of what the federal government will spend on the department of education this year). The parent's ideas for reforms are most applicable to state governments, since that's where most education spending happens. California is also in a pretty bad spot economically, so if it were possible to drastically reduce the cost of education (without impacting the level of service), it would significantly help our state's finances. [Disclaimer: California is the largest state economy, and the relative education budget will vary between states.]
steamer25 14y ago
IANAL but it seems pretty clear to me that Coursera is exempted under 136A.653 subd 2 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=136A.653 https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=136A.653): Subd. 2.Educational program; nonprofit organizations. Educational programs which are sponsored by a bona fide and nonprofit trade, labor, business, professional or fraternal organization, which programs are conducted solely for that organization's membership or for the members of the particular industries or professions served by that organization, and which are not available to the public on a fee basis, are exempted from the provisions of sections 136A.61 to 136A.71.
- tzs 14y ago
  Coursera is not non-profit.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- natrius 14y ago
  Coursera isn't a nonprofit, and a plain reading of that statute seems to require nonprofit status.
  - steamer25 14y ago
    I guess it might not be that clear then... Nevertheless, until they actually start charging something I, for one, could be persuaded that they constitute a 'good faith' non-profit. Alternately, I can't imagine it'd be too difficult to spin off a second organization, funded by the for-profit parent that provides the non-profit programs. There are likely additional incentives for doing so.
- FootballMuse 14y ago
  Subd. 3 seems to be more likely Educational program; business firms. Educational programs which are sponsored by a business firm for the training of its employees or the employees of other business firms with which it has contracted to provide educational services at no cost to the employees are exempted from the provisions of sections 136A.61 to 136A.71.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
Well, there's the proof that Coursera and the rest are serious threats to the existing order.
- makomk 14y ago
  Or more likely, Minnesota's just had a lot of problems in the past with scammers running useless unaccredited online and mail-in degreee programs like everywhere else.
kfcm 14y ago
I attended a tech demo conference in Minnesota last week. One topic of conversation during a networking break was having a theme to the next demo conference. The one theme which was heavily discussed? Wait for it. Edu-tech. Oh, the irony.
kfcm 14y ago
A better title for this would be: "Minnesota Tells Coursera To Hit the Trail...Oregon Trail That Is." The infamous "Oregon Trail" game was developed in Minnesota.
cafard 14y ago
"the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota" Many many years ago, presumably during a discussion about travel, a great aunt of mine told her brother-in-law that he had been in two states she never had: intoxication and insanity. Either seems a sufficient defense here, and will the state of Minnesota make you blow in the bag and issue you a ticket for sober learning?
tokenadult 14y ago
I live in Minnesota. I am enrolled for five Coursera courses (of which I am really keeping up with two, Keith Devlin's Introduction to Mathematical Thinking, a "transitions" course, and Mohamed Noor's Introduction to Genetics and Evolution). I have received no notification from Coursera to this effect. Checking my email messages from Coursera, I see no such notice, and logging into the site, there is no attempt to use geolocation to give a Minnesota-specific notice to me. Moreover, I only see two blogs reporting this (one presumably cribbing from the other) as I do a Google News search. No local news organization in Minnesota has picked up this story. So thus far I'm not even sure that this is a true factual report. (I'll check with my state government during business hours tomorrow.) I doubt that this is true, and I doubt that this will hold up. Because I just met my incumbent state senator and state representative this evening (at a candidate forum in our newly redistricted state Senate district), I suppose I could contact their offices for immediate response to this issue, if there really is an issue here. My advice from a Minnesota Coursera student (who is also a lawyer familiar education regulations in the state of Minnesota, continually discovering new regulations that bureaucrats have ignored for varying lengths of time) is stay tuned for further news, and check the facts before proceeding to react to this. AFTER EDIT: The first reply here refers to the Coursera terms of service, https://www.coursera.org/about/terms https://www.coursera.org/about/terms not a very prominent link on the Coursera site, and in context the notice fits in a big wall of text like this: "Notice for California Users Under California Civil Code Section 1789.3, California Website users are entitled to the following specific consumer rights notice: The Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California Department of Consumer Affairs may be contacted in writing at 1625 N. Market Blvd., Suite S-202, Sacramento, California 95834, or by telephone at (800) 952-5210. Notice for Minnesota Users "Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota. Choice of Law/Forum Selection "Sites are managed by Coursera, located in Santa Clara County, California. You agree that any dispute arising out of or relating to these Terms of Use or any content posted to a Site, including copies and republication thereof, whether based in contract, tort, statutory or other law, will be governed by the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You further consent to the personal jurisdiction of and exclusive venue in the federal and state courts located in and serving Santa Clara County, California as the legal forum for any such dispute. "Excluding claims for injunctive or other equitable relief, for claims related to the Coursera Sites where the total amount sought is less than ten thousand U.S. Dollars ($10,000.00 USD), either Coursera or You may elect at any point during the dispute to resolve the claim through binding, non-appearance-based arbitration. The dispute will then be resolved using an established alternative dispute resolution ("ADR") provider, mutually agreed upon by You and Coursera. The parties and the selected ADR provider shall not involve any personal appearance by the parties or witnesses, unless otherwise mutually agreed by the parties; rather, the arbitration shall be conducted, at the option of the party seeking relief, online, by telephone, online, or via written submissions alone. Any judgment rendered by the arbitrator may be entered in any court of competent jurisdiction." That's about midway down a rather lengthy ToS, definitely "below the fold" for a casual glance at usual screen resolutions. Again, I will say that Coursera has not sent any notice to users of Coursera about that by email (I searched in my emails again) and doesn't draw attention to that by geolocation as users log in. So while Coursera feels compelled to add terms to its ToS, at least as of this moment, there doesn't seem to be any actual change in user interaction based on this. I will contact the relevant offices in Minnesota and see what they have to say about this during business hours. As before, Google News only reveals the blog here and another blog reporting on this. Summing up, I think the blog post has a title that is link bait compared to the substance of the issue, and the issue appears to be doing nothing to discourage participation on Coursera on the part of Minnesota students. Coursera has put up a pro-forma legal notice, but it is still dealing with Minnesota students, and no one in Minnesota seems worried about signing up for Coursera courses.

104 points by mbrubeck 14y ago

truebecomefalse 14y ago

This is so backwards but so are many of the laws that are on the books in many states.

rayiner 14y ago
It's not a backwards law, it's a silly application of the law. The consumer protection angle is as valid today as it was decades ago, it's just irrelevant in the context of an entity that doesn't charge anything.
mangler 14y ago
This is 'backward' until you meet a bunch of doctors who claim to cure cancer using cucumber juice and find that they all have PhDs and MDs from the University of Tantric Study and Life Exploration, Middlesex Town Massahoma. People in trouble DO fall for this bs.
- scarmig 14y ago
  That's optimistic. There are plenty of quacks out there who claim to cure cancer using things like "black salve," which regularly causes permanent disfigurement and sometimes death. (Googlers beware.)
- polymatter 14y ago
  I find it very hard to believe anyone can possibly be confused here. Coursera is not a university, doesn't look or pretend to be a university. It doesn't grant PhDs, MDs, or indeed anything beyond a simple certificate that isn't even valid as college credit. They go to some length on every single course page to explain this. Some courses don't even give you a certificate. The website doesn't talk about certification it talks about "Advance your knowledge and career". There is a big tab that says "Universities" so I can't see how you could think Coursera was a university.
- ef4 14y ago
  But people who are desperate and gullible don't check references. The scammer can just as easily claim to have an MD they never earned from a legitimate school, or an MD from a school that doesn't exist, or one that has never received approval to teach in any particular state. School accreditation really isn't an effective solution to the problem you pose.
- mcguire 14y ago
  How much would you care to bet that the University of Tantric Study and Life Exploration, Middlesex Town Massahoma, would have all of the approvals necessary?

ca136 14y ago

Probably more positives here for Coursera than negatives. It'll get them more press and won't stop anyone from taking classes. Hopefully it'll even make someone in the MN Office of Higher Education realize they need to update their policies.

far33d 14y ago

Why doesn't coursera take the same approach as Uber and respectfully disagree to comply?

mentat 14y ago
aka operate illegally?
- shrughes 14y ago
  Or win on 1st amendment grounds.
  - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
    Not even close; Minnesota isn't saying that Coursera cannot operate in Minnesota, just that it cannot do so without approval -- just like how you don't have the right to have a huge demonstration without proper permits. There is well-established precedent that it is acceptable to have minor hurdles in the expression of free speech in the interest of maintaining an orderly society. Edit: also, the problem is that they are calling it a "college course", this is a simple consumer protection issue..
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      My impression is that they can get away with requiring permits for demonstrations because there are physical space considerations, public safety, etc. Imagine if a state decided you needed a permit to write for a political blog. Same content as a protest may have, but without the meatspace messiness.
      - rayiner 14y ago
        Coursera isn't a political blog, it's a commercial service (even if provided for no fee).
        14y ago

gojomo 14y ago

I bet a compromise could be worked out if Coursera agrees to make instructional materials available via 'gopher'.

Tycho 14y ago

If the government was serious about cutting budget deficits, it would immediately discontinue the purchase of textbooks, switch to ereaders (there's a company in Europe selling basic eInk readers for £8), make use of out-of-copyright reading material, abandon the practice of lecturers performing the exact same lecture term after term when a recording will do, partner with companies like Coursera to provide curriculums, move towards homework and exams that can be marked by a computer rather than by hand... And generally just run education in a way that reflects the technology we have at our disposal.

aaronblohowiak 14y ago
California is taking the lead in this, yet again.. http://www.clrn.org/fdti/ http://www.clrn.org/fdti/
- mangler 14y ago
  Thank you Terminator!!! We knew you'd do a great job!...
scarmig 14y ago
All of those ideas are certainly good things. But even if they managed to decrease the eduction budget to $0, that wouldn't make a dent in government deficits (in the USA, at least, and I suspect elsewhere). They're driven primarily by unfunded entitlement spending and to a lesser extent by the military budget.
- dkokelley 14y ago
  I think you are confusing the federal and state governments. The federal government spends most of its budget on defense and entitlements. Only a smaller portion goes on to education (usually in the form of grants and subsidies to the state). Education happens at the state level. For example, California's proposed budget for 2012-2013 (http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Revised/BudgetSummary/SummaryC...) spends $50 of the $141 billion total budget on education (k-12 and higher education). Compare that to the < 2% ($72 billion) that the US federal budget will spend in the department of education. (Note: Consider that California alone spends 5/7ths of what the federal government will spend on the department of education this year). The parent's ideas for reforms are most applicable to state governments, since that's where most education spending happens. California is also in a pretty bad spot economically, so if it were possible to drastically reduce the cost of education (without impacting the level of service), it would significantly help our state's finances. [Disclaimer: California is the largest state economy, and the relative education budget will vary between states.]

steamer25 14y ago

IANAL but it seems pretty clear to me that Coursera is exempted under 136A.653 subd 2 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=136A.653 https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=136A.653): Subd. 2.Educational program; nonprofit organizations. Educational programs which are sponsored by a bona fide and nonprofit trade, labor, business, professional or fraternal organization, which programs are conducted solely for that organization's membership or for the members of the particular industries or professions served by that organization, and which are not available to the public on a fee basis, are exempted from the provisions of sections 136A.61 to 136A.71.

tzs 14y ago
Coursera is not non-profit.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
natrius 14y ago
Coursera isn't a nonprofit, and a plain reading of that statute seems to require nonprofit status.
- steamer25 14y ago
  I guess it might not be that clear then... Nevertheless, until they actually start charging something I, for one, could be persuaded that they constitute a 'good faith' non-profit. Alternately, I can't imagine it'd be too difficult to spin off a second organization, funded by the for-profit parent that provides the non-profit programs. There are likely additional incentives for doing so.
FootballMuse 14y ago
Subd. 3 seems to be more likely Educational program; business firms. Educational programs which are sponsored by a business firm for the training of its employees or the employees of other business firms with which it has contracted to provide educational services at no cost to the employees are exempted from the provisions of sections 136A.61 to 136A.71.

waterlesscloud 14y ago

Well, there's the proof that Coursera and the rest are serious threats to the existing order.

makomk 14y ago
Or more likely, Minnesota's just had a lot of problems in the past with scammers running useless unaccredited online and mail-in degreee programs like everywhere else.

kfcm 14y ago

I attended a tech demo conference in Minnesota last week. One topic of conversation during a networking break was having a theme to the next demo conference. The one theme which was heavily discussed? Wait for it. Edu-tech. Oh, the irony.

kfcm 14y ago

A better title for this would be: "Minnesota Tells Coursera To Hit the Trail...Oregon Trail That Is." The infamous "Oregon Trail" game was developed in Minnesota.

cafard 14y ago

"the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota" Many many years ago, presumably during a discussion about travel, a great aunt of mine told her brother-in-law that he had been in two states she never had: intoxication and insanity. Either seems a sufficient defense here, and will the state of Minnesota make you blow in the bag and issue you a ticket for sober learning?

tokenadult 14y ago

I live in Minnesota. I am enrolled for five Coursera courses (of which I am really keeping up with two, Keith Devlin's Introduction to Mathematical Thinking, a "transitions" course, and Mohamed Noor's Introduction to Genetics and Evolution). I have received no notification from Coursera to this effect. Checking my email messages from Coursera, I see no such notice, and logging into the site, there is no attempt to use geolocation to give a Minnesota-specific notice to me. Moreover, I only see two blogs reporting this (one presumably cribbing from the other) as I do a Google News search. No local news organization in Minnesota has picked up this story. So thus far I'm not even sure that this is a true factual report. (I'll check with my state government during business hours tomorrow.) I doubt that this is true, and I doubt that this will hold up. Because I just met my incumbent state senator and state representative this evening (at a candidate forum in our newly redistricted state Senate district), I suppose I could contact their offices for immediate response to this issue, if there really is an issue here. My advice from a Minnesota Coursera student (who is also a lawyer familiar education regulations in the state of Minnesota, continually discovering new regulations that bureaucrats have ignored for varying lengths of time) is stay tuned for further news, and check the facts before proceeding to react to this. AFTER EDIT: The first reply here refers to the Coursera terms of service, https://www.coursera.org/about/terms https://www.coursera.org/about/terms not a very prominent link on the Coursera site, and in context the notice fits in a big wall of text like this: "Notice for California Users Under California Civil Code Section 1789.3, California Website users are entitled to the following specific consumer rights notice: The Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California Department of Consumer Affairs may be contacted in writing at 1625 N. Market Blvd., Suite S-202, Sacramento, California 95834, or by telephone at (800) 952-5210. Notice for Minnesota Users "Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota. Choice of Law/Forum Selection "Sites are managed by Coursera, located in Santa Clara County, California. You agree that any dispute arising out of or relating to these Terms of Use or any content posted to a Site, including copies and republication thereof, whether based in contract, tort, statutory or other law, will be governed by the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You further consent to the personal jurisdiction of and exclusive venue in the federal and state courts located in and serving Santa Clara County, California as the legal forum for any such dispute. "Excluding claims for injunctive or other equitable relief, for claims related to the Coursera Sites where the total amount sought is less than ten thousand U.S. Dollars ($10,000.00 USD), either Coursera or You may elect at any point during the dispute to resolve the claim through binding, non-appearance-based arbitration. The dispute will then be resolved using an established alternative dispute resolution ("ADR") provider, mutually agreed upon by You and Coursera. The parties and the selected ADR provider shall not involve any personal appearance by the parties or witnesses, unless otherwise mutually agreed by the parties; rather, the arbitration shall be conducted, at the option of the party seeking relief, online, by telephone, online, or via written submissions alone. Any judgment rendered by the arbitrator may be entered in any court of competent jurisdiction." That's about midway down a rather lengthy ToS, definitely "below the fold" for a casual glance at usual screen resolutions. Again, I will say that Coursera has not sent any notice to users of Coursera about that by email (I searched in my emails again) and doesn't draw attention to that by geolocation as users log in. So while Coursera feels compelled to add terms to its ToS, at least as of this moment, there doesn't seem to be any actual change in user interaction based on this. I will contact the relevant offices in Minnesota and see what they have to say about this during business hours. As before, Google News only reveals the blog here and another blog reporting on this. Summing up, I think the blog post has a title that is link bait compared to the substance of the issue, and the issue appears to be doing nothing to discourage participation on Coursera on the part of Minnesota students. Coursera has put up a pro-forma legal notice, but it is still dealing with Minnesota students, and no one in Minnesota seems worried about signing up for Coursera courses.