10 ms·

European lawmakers suspend U.S. trade deal

105 points by belter 9mo ago

upstreamutopia 9mo ago
Makes sense, based on the situation...
- Herring 9mo ago
  Bullies hate this one weird trick.
rurban 9mo ago
[flagged]
- andsoitis 9mo ago
  Be the chage you want to see, rather than stoop to lower levels.
  - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
    Indeed, force isn't required, just have all EU countries divest of US treasuries and invest in Eurobonds. Invest Eurobonds in industries to achieve US independence. Europe holds ~$8T in US treasuries. Why continue to invest this capital in US debt being used to wage war and provide tax cuts for the wealthy when it could be used to improve Europe? This will also force the US to fix its fiscal policy to avoid a debt spiral as the cost to borrow increases. To provide cheap credit to the US enables a bully who spends with no responsibility. https://usafacts.org/government-spending/ https://usafacts.org/government-spending/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_vigilante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_vigilante
    - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
      I do feel as if though this might lead to US defaulting on its loan but it still wouldn't make a state secede from the market Also probably EU should co-ordinate with different countries who are holding US treasuries and if they get screwed (China,Japan,Australia etc.) then these other countries can have net loss as well. (which can impact these countries internally to prevent EU from investing in their currencies worried about what if EU might plug in again, yes I know EU is in the right regarding the greenland crisis but still it's not about if EU would be right but if EU would be capable to go and do this & what's the definition/criteria required for them to do such. The most loss would still be of America though but still EU might still face some loss too (comparatively small to America) I do believe that this can weaken US so much that it might trigger insurrection act or similar and we are saying US act so unreasoable regarding greenland right now, I am 99% sure that a nuclear war would feel imminent if this happens and would have a genuine impact on QOL of European and America and the world in general too. Sure america might lose more but there has to still be a proper discussion on what's really valuable right now & if this would make this geopolitical sense, then we will see it happen. I do beleive that even this 8 billion is start. We might not see an immediate 8T $ worth of bonds sellout just now. But we might definitely get to around 10% (800 billion) imo in slow chunks imo. Europe's probably trying to get the world on its side and forming alliances right now.
- logicchains 9mo ago
  >Germany, France and the UK should also revise their other US policies, regaining control of their US territories Europe's problem is there's about as much chance of this succeeding as of Taiwan conquering mainland China. Decades of prioritising welfare over warfare and economic growth have left Europe technologically and militarily completely unable to compete with the US, in spite of Europe's significantly larger population. Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine; how could it hope to deny any land to the US?
  - amarcheschi 9mo ago
    Europe is not waging a war with Russia, Ukraine is
    - tharmas 9mo ago
      Not only that it was a USA project. The goal is to keep Europe and Russia apart.
    - watwut 9mo ago
      Russia invaded Ukraine and would like to expand even more.
  - cbg0 9mo ago
    > Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine Considering how difficult Russia's advances have been inside the Ukraine in the past couple of years, it would be trivial to "kick Russia out of Ukraine" if a few big players in the EU actually tried to do it.
    - braingravy 9mo ago
      That would require a military arsenal. The EU outsourced that to the U.S. a long time ago.
      - avh02 9mo ago
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- sbuttgereit 9mo ago
  That the current US administration is behaving today not terribly unlike the UK regime of the late 18th century is not a convincing argument for the UK reasserting its historic imperial ambitions in North America or elsewhere. Furthermore, the native populations of those western territories would probably like to have a word over UK & European rights to assert such privileges in the first place.
- Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
  There was a recent article on Hackernews which has since got flagged but it was a petition where california gets to be part of denmark, because why not? more than 200_000 people signed it & some in the hackernews comments even appreciated it with things like saying about healthcare etc. so I can see it as a real possibility but this would invoke force given that US states cannot unilaterally secede from the union. Edit: Forgot to write to be, my bad. Thanks to dragonwriter for seeing the edit as I agree that without the to be, the whole context completely changes
  - TehCorwiz 9mo ago
    You have that backwards. It was a petition to sell California to Denmark. https://www.newsweek.com/petition-denmark-buy-california-signed-thousands-11379999 https://www.newsweek.com/petition-denmark-buy-california-sig...
    - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
      Yea, I knew that / meant this but I still miswrote it, sorry about that. Fixed it now.
  - dragonwriter 9mo ago
    > it was a petition where california gets part of denmark You left out “to be” between “California gets” and “part of”, which rather substantially misrepresents the petition.
    - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
      > > Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine; how could it hope to deny any land to the US? > This isn’t particularly well know, but Russia has had nuclear weapons since 1949. I suspect this is why European countries have not adopted a more aggressive posture towards Russia in Ukraine. Oh yeah, my apologies. Let me fix it, Sorry about that!! Yea my bad. I understand why I got downvoted. Fair, yea its misrepresented I meant denmark gets california (edit: looks like I had made the same mistake here too lmao now fixed)
bryanlarsen 9mo ago
The headline has it backwards. The US was the one that invalidated the trade deal by imposing more than the 15% tariffs agreed to in the deal.
- tokai 9mo ago
  No, you are being pedantic. They did sit down and agree to suspend it because the 15% tariffs go against the agreement.
  - happytoexplain 9mo ago
    I don't think that counts as being pedantic. "Suspend" is not the right word if you're going to point out that it was the US that broke the deal, but the headline is burying the lede. Party A broke the deal, then party B announced the deal has been broken and formally suspended the deal. Party A's actions should be in the headline.
    - Supermancho 9mo ago
      > US that broke the deal, Changed the deal. A deal is between 2 parties in agreement. When both parties agree to terms that are written out, the one party (Europe) is given a document with modified terms, the provider (US) broke convention. The receiver of the modified document stopped the negotiation. Suspended is sufficient to describe the situation. This isnt complicated, sheesh.
      - bigbadfeline 9mo ago
        > Changed the deal... [after] both parties agree to terms, [one] is given a document with modified terms... Putting on my Dart Vader hat: "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw&t=11s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw&t=11s
  - grvbck 9mo ago
    Not pedantic enough, actually. European lawmakers don't suspend the deal, they suspend work on implementing the laws that are part of a multi‑step political and legal process that in the end makes the deal implemented in all member states.
jppope 9mo ago
So I don't really follow the news, except that adjacent stuff that pops up on hacker news... Is the administration serious or is this like just a distraction while they do something else when no one is paying attention?
- tokai 9mo ago
  Who knows. But at some point it doesn't matter and it would be imprudent not to deal with it as serious.
- b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
  So I don't really follow the news I feel like not knowing about the tariffs and your cost of living being on an exponential graph is more than "not following the news"? The administration is serious and causing harm to everyone it can.
  - dentemple 9mo ago
    It is certainly a privilege being an American right now and not having to worry about: 1) A rapidly growing economic crisis due to aggressive and inchorent foreign policy decisions 2) The new force of Gestapo murdering and harming citizens in cities all across the nation A real privilege.
    - CamperBob2 9mo ago
      ICE isn't the Gestapo. The Gestapo didn't hide their faces. If history is any guide, ICE may be better compared to the SA. Their job is to make it safe for the future Gestapo to operate unmasked... at which point the unprofessional street thugs in ICE will find that they've become a liability to the regime.
      - b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
        The Gestapo also didn't have smartphones recording their every action in public places being disseminated to the entire planet.
2OEH8eoCRo0 9mo ago
Is that the trade deal that prevents jailbreaking and interop that Doctorow was talking about?
- SockThief 9mo ago
  I don't think so. I believe it is about "Agreement on Reciprocal, Fair, and Balanced Trade". It was yet to be ratified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Reciprocal%2C_Fair%2C_and_Balanced_Trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Reciprocal%2C_Fai...
mkl95 9mo ago
The US won't stop bullying the rest of the world until it has drastic consequences for its economy. Make of that what you will.
- aa_is_op 9mo ago
  Well, a lot of countries are switching their supply chains to LATAM and Africa for this exact reason. I think the damage might have been already done
- lenerdenator 9mo ago
  That's just it: bullying the rest of the world typically doesn't have drastic negative consequences for an economy. China's claimed the South China Sea as its sovereign waters and has been using force against fishermen from the nations that actually have control over the water. They're continuing to threaten Taiwan in a purely ideological push. Chinese secret police have set up stations abroad to kidnap dissidents. Border skirmishes with India are not uncommon. The agreement for a democratic Hong Kong was torn up and now they're under the thumb of the CCP, same as the mainland. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, Crimea in 2014, and of course Eastern Ukraine in 2022. They haven't had a "real" election in decades. Dissidents die suspiciously with regularity. Both nations have supported the efforts of North Korea to further its nuclear arsenal in blatant violation of UN resolutions. With the exception of the invasion of Ukraine, there have been zero negative consequences for any of this behavior. Both nations have hosted at least one major international sporting event in the last 20 years. China is signing trade deals with Canada and the EU nations because, for some reason, those parties see a totalitarian single-party state as a viable alternative to the US that will never produce a "mad king", when in fact, it's almost tailor-made to do so. Construction on Nordstream 2 started after the invasion of Georgia, specifically because Europeans wanted Russian natural gas. Russian oligarchs continue to hold major interests in European nations and are free to move about the continent. Sanctions against the Russian economy over the invasion of Ukraine are dodged by dealing with intermediate parties so that many nations, including those in Europe, can do business as usual. If you're a narcissistic psychopath - like the majority of world politicians and Donald Trump are - and you see this sort of thing happening, you're going to ask, "Why can't America play by those rules too?"
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
ChrisArchitect 9mo ago
Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46702280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46702280
duxup 9mo ago
I don’t know what the point of negotiating with Trump is if a few months later he will get upset about some made up problem and ignore the past agreement that was negotiated.
KarenDaBass 9mo ago
[flagged]

105 points by belter 9mo ago

upstreamutopia 9mo ago

Makes sense, based on the situation...

Herring 9mo ago
Bullies hate this one weird trick.

rurban 9mo ago

[flagged]

andsoitis 9mo ago
Be the chage you want to see, rather than stoop to lower levels.
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
  Indeed, force isn't required, just have all EU countries divest of US treasuries and invest in Eurobonds. Invest Eurobonds in industries to achieve US independence. Europe holds ~$8T in US treasuries. Why continue to invest this capital in US debt being used to wage war and provide tax cuts for the wealthy when it could be used to improve Europe? This will also force the US to fix its fiscal policy to avoid a debt spiral as the cost to borrow increases. To provide cheap credit to the US enables a bully who spends with no responsibility. https://usafacts.org/government-spending/ https://usafacts.org/government-spending/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_vigilante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_vigilante
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    I do feel as if though this might lead to US defaulting on its loan but it still wouldn't make a state secede from the market Also probably EU should co-ordinate with different countries who are holding US treasuries and if they get screwed (China,Japan,Australia etc.) then these other countries can have net loss as well. (which can impact these countries internally to prevent EU from investing in their currencies worried about what if EU might plug in again, yes I know EU is in the right regarding the greenland crisis but still it's not about if EU would be right but if EU would be capable to go and do this & what's the definition/criteria required for them to do such. The most loss would still be of America though but still EU might still face some loss too (comparatively small to America) I do believe that this can weaken US so much that it might trigger insurrection act or similar and we are saying US act so unreasoable regarding greenland right now, I am 99% sure that a nuclear war would feel imminent if this happens and would have a genuine impact on QOL of European and America and the world in general too. Sure america might lose more but there has to still be a proper discussion on what's really valuable right now & if this would make this geopolitical sense, then we will see it happen. I do beleive that even this 8 billion is start. We might not see an immediate 8T $ worth of bonds sellout just now. But we might definitely get to around 10% (800 billion) imo in slow chunks imo. Europe's probably trying to get the world on its side and forming alliances right now.
logicchains 9mo ago
>Germany, France and the UK should also revise their other US policies, regaining control of their US territories Europe's problem is there's about as much chance of this succeeding as of Taiwan conquering mainland China. Decades of prioritising welfare over warfare and economic growth have left Europe technologically and militarily completely unable to compete with the US, in spite of Europe's significantly larger population. Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine; how could it hope to deny any land to the US?
- amarcheschi 9mo ago
  Europe is not waging a war with Russia, Ukraine is
  - tharmas 9mo ago
    Not only that it was a USA project. The goal is to keep Europe and Russia apart.
  - watwut 9mo ago
    Russia invaded Ukraine and would like to expand even more.
- cbg0 9mo ago
  > Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine Considering how difficult Russia's advances have been inside the Ukraine in the past couple of years, it would be trivial to "kick Russia out of Ukraine" if a few big players in the EU actually tried to do it.
  - braingravy 9mo ago
    That would require a military arsenal. The EU outsourced that to the U.S. a long time ago.
    - avh02 9mo ago
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
sbuttgereit 9mo ago
That the current US administration is behaving today not terribly unlike the UK regime of the late 18th century is not a convincing argument for the UK reasserting its historic imperial ambitions in North America or elsewhere. Furthermore, the native populations of those western territories would probably like to have a word over UK & European rights to assert such privileges in the first place.
Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
There was a recent article on Hackernews which has since got flagged but it was a petition where california gets to be part of denmark, because why not? more than 200_000 people signed it & some in the hackernews comments even appreciated it with things like saying about healthcare etc. so I can see it as a real possibility but this would invoke force given that US states cannot unilaterally secede from the union. Edit: Forgot to write to be, my bad. Thanks to dragonwriter for seeing the edit as I agree that without the to be, the whole context completely changes
- TehCorwiz 9mo ago
  You have that backwards. It was a petition to sell California to Denmark. https://www.newsweek.com/petition-denmark-buy-california-signed-thousands-11379999 https://www.newsweek.com/petition-denmark-buy-california-sig...
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    Yea, I knew that / meant this but I still miswrote it, sorry about that. Fixed it now.
- dragonwriter 9mo ago
  > it was a petition where california gets part of denmark You left out “to be” between “California gets” and “part of”, which rather substantially misrepresents the petition.
  - Imustaskforhelp 9mo ago
    > > Europe couldn't kick Russia, a country with 10x lower GDP and a decrepit army, out of Ukraine; how could it hope to deny any land to the US? > This isn’t particularly well know, but Russia has had nuclear weapons since 1949. I suspect this is why European countries have not adopted a more aggressive posture towards Russia in Ukraine. Oh yeah, my apologies. Let me fix it, Sorry about that!! Yea my bad. I understand why I got downvoted. Fair, yea its misrepresented I meant denmark gets california (edit: looks like I had made the same mistake here too lmao now fixed)

bryanlarsen 9mo ago

The headline has it backwards. The US was the one that invalidated the trade deal by imposing more than the 15% tariffs agreed to in the deal.

tokai 9mo ago
No, you are being pedantic. They did sit down and agree to suspend it because the 15% tariffs go against the agreement.
- happytoexplain 9mo ago
  I don't think that counts as being pedantic. "Suspend" is not the right word if you're going to point out that it was the US that broke the deal, but the headline is burying the lede. Party A broke the deal, then party B announced the deal has been broken and formally suspended the deal. Party A's actions should be in the headline.
  - Supermancho 9mo ago
    > US that broke the deal, Changed the deal. A deal is between 2 parties in agreement. When both parties agree to terms that are written out, the one party (Europe) is given a document with modified terms, the provider (US) broke convention. The receiver of the modified document stopped the negotiation. Suspended is sufficient to describe the situation. This isnt complicated, sheesh.
    - bigbadfeline 9mo ago
      > Changed the deal... [after] both parties agree to terms, [one] is given a document with modified terms... Putting on my Dart Vader hat: "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw&t=11s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw&t=11s
- grvbck 9mo ago
  Not pedantic enough, actually. European lawmakers don't suspend the deal, they suspend work on implementing the laws that are part of a multi‑step political and legal process that in the end makes the deal implemented in all member states.

jppope 9mo ago

So I don't really follow the news, except that adjacent stuff that pops up on hacker news... Is the administration serious or is this like just a distraction while they do something else when no one is paying attention?

tokai 9mo ago
Who knows. But at some point it doesn't matter and it would be imprudent not to deal with it as serious.
b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
So I don't really follow the news I feel like not knowing about the tariffs and your cost of living being on an exponential graph is more than "not following the news"? The administration is serious and causing harm to everyone it can.
- dentemple 9mo ago
  It is certainly a privilege being an American right now and not having to worry about: 1) A rapidly growing economic crisis due to aggressive and inchorent foreign policy decisions 2) The new force of Gestapo murdering and harming citizens in cities all across the nation A real privilege.
  - CamperBob2 9mo ago
    ICE isn't the Gestapo. The Gestapo didn't hide their faces. If history is any guide, ICE may be better compared to the SA. Their job is to make it safe for the future Gestapo to operate unmasked... at which point the unprofessional street thugs in ICE will find that they've become a liability to the regime.
    - b40d-48b2-979e 9mo ago
      The Gestapo also didn't have smartphones recording their every action in public places being disseminated to the entire planet.

2OEH8eoCRo0 9mo ago

Is that the trade deal that prevents jailbreaking and interop that Doctorow was talking about?

SockThief 9mo ago
I don't think so. I believe it is about "Agreement on Reciprocal, Fair, and Balanced Trade". It was yet to be ratified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Reciprocal%2C_Fair%2C_and_Balanced_Trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement_on_Reciprocal%2C_Fai...

mkl95 9mo ago

The US won't stop bullying the rest of the world until it has drastic consequences for its economy. Make of that what you will.

aa_is_op 9mo ago
Well, a lot of countries are switching their supply chains to LATAM and Africa for this exact reason. I think the damage might have been already done
lenerdenator 9mo ago
That's just it: bullying the rest of the world typically doesn't have drastic negative consequences for an economy. China's claimed the South China Sea as its sovereign waters and has been using force against fishermen from the nations that actually have control over the water. They're continuing to threaten Taiwan in a purely ideological push. Chinese secret police have set up stations abroad to kidnap dissidents. Border skirmishes with India are not uncommon. The agreement for a democratic Hong Kong was torn up and now they're under the thumb of the CCP, same as the mainland. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, Crimea in 2014, and of course Eastern Ukraine in 2022. They haven't had a "real" election in decades. Dissidents die suspiciously with regularity. Both nations have supported the efforts of North Korea to further its nuclear arsenal in blatant violation of UN resolutions. With the exception of the invasion of Ukraine, there have been zero negative consequences for any of this behavior. Both nations have hosted at least one major international sporting event in the last 20 years. China is signing trade deals with Canada and the EU nations because, for some reason, those parties see a totalitarian single-party state as a viable alternative to the US that will never produce a "mad king", when in fact, it's almost tailor-made to do so. Construction on Nordstream 2 started after the invasion of Georgia, specifically because Europeans wanted Russian natural gas. Russian oligarchs continue to hold major interests in European nations and are free to move about the continent. Sanctions against the Russian economy over the invasion of Ukraine are dodged by dealing with intermediate parties so that many nations, including those in Europe, can do business as usual. If you're a narcissistic psychopath - like the majority of world politicians and Donald Trump are - and you see this sort of thing happening, you're going to ask, "Why can't America play by those rules too?"

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 9mo ago

Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46702280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46702280

duxup 9mo ago

I don’t know what the point of negotiating with Trump is if a few months later he will get upset about some made up problem and ignore the past agreement that was negotiated.

KarenDaBass 9mo ago

[flagged]