7 ms·

Is this a true problem in EU (or indeed anywhere)? I don't think starting a company is the bottleneck, it's mostly the inordinate amount of regulations one has

Is this a true problem in EU (or indeed anywhere)? I don't think starting a company is the bottleneck, it's mostly the inordinate amount of regulations one has to comply with, as well as the strenuous laws around letting workers go, while making people work as contractors being also frowned upon. I'm not sure how any one these is going to change.

wolvoleo 9mo ago
Those things are as designed. This is good. We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US. We want to have rights as employees. We want to have social welfare. We want our free healthcare. It's not a bug it's a feature. We don't want an American-style society. Current developments should be enough reason to understand why (and the understanding that Trump's backers are part of a huge group of people on the low side of the wealth gap). If anything we have too much of that already hence the rise of extreme right here too. It's a result of the austerity movements after the 2007 crash. But this new regulation doesn't invalidate employee rights no. It's just about registration and incorporation.
- WarmWash 9mo ago
  The EU has a borderline stagnant economy, couldn't defend itself from Russia, facing population collapse, totally whiffed on the tech scene explosion in the last 25 years, now also missing out on AI. European social obligations are expensive, yet nobody seems to really want to stress about creating new sources of wealth. At some point Europeans need to look in the mirror, and understand that the last 30 years has been a vacation, and even worse, there is now a whole generation who was born on vacation and thinks it's the norm.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    We can defend ourselves, it's just that the US didn't want a too-powerful Europe until trump. In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that. We'll have to scale this up now but it is not a big problem. Population collapse is a good thing. We already have too many people in this world, causing environmental and housing issues. We can't keep ever growing as humanity, stabilisation or even a reduction is very good. It'll cause some short term cash flow and elderly care issues but we'll deal with that. And AI so far is more of a hollow promise and hype. It's not a race, the way America is approaching it it's inevitably going to lead to a bubble collapse.
    - codingcodingboy 9mo ago
      "In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that." Saw this yesterday related to nuclear deterrence in Italy. https://x.com/NichoConcu/status/2012882747434426605 https://x.com/NichoConcu/status/2012882747434426605
    - WarmWash 9mo ago
      Europe didn't want a too powerful Europe until Trump. Are you going to look me in the eyes and say that you, and your general Euro brethren, have been pushing for a greater defense budget at the expense of greater social program spending for the last 30 years. Please, please make that statement. C'mon... This is the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to buy gas from Russia, the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to have a fully American tech stack, and the same Europe (whose largest company is an automotive one) that is importing cheap Chinese cars. Anything to avoid having to leave their 30 year vacation.
      - wolvoleo 9mo ago
        No, but back then the US was a trusted partner. They wanted to provide military protection in return for geopolitical influence. Both are gone now of course. However I don't think we need a huge military in terms of boots on the ground. We just need a nuclear umbrella to avoid the likes of Putin to roll into europe. Most of our foreign military adventures were requested by the US and only about oil, not safety related. Even the nato article 5 afghanistan trip was completely useless (bin laden wasn't even there, afghanistan had nothing to do with the attacks and since everyone pulled out things are 100% back the way they were). And yeah we bought too much American tech and chinese manufacturing (but so does America obviously). Cars aren't that important to single out, a lot of us don't even have one. And Europe was a lot more socialist > 30 years ago. It's the last decades that the neoliberalists (including the EU itself which has strong neoliberal underpinnings) have been hollowing out social protections in favour of business. This is what I mean when I say the US model isn't necessarily the best. Americans are often completely convinced of that, that there is no other way than ultracapitalism and heartless social policies. I absolutely don't agree there. The US is best at making some people insane amounts of money but it's not great for social cohesion and a decent life for everyone.
- usrnm 9mo ago
  Refusal to learn and change, even if it means learning from people you disagree with, is simply arrogant and stupid. The US is the biggest economy in the world with the strongest tech sector in the world, they are obviously doing something right. And many personal accounts from people doing business in the EU in this thread show that the EU is doing at least some things wrong.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    We don't care only about money. We're doing pretty great, we have some issues like housing cost but the US has those too. I'm happy with my life and I don't feel like there's something missing that having more money would fix. Less employment and welfare rights would cause a lot of worry and uncertainty though. It's not all about economy and getting ever more more more like the US. I'm pretty happy living here and I would never move to the US. In fact right now I wouldn't even visit it but hopefully the status quo doesn't last forever. And it's not all about business. But about people, the employees.
    - thewebguyd 9mo ago
      > And it's not all about business. But about people, the employees. Everyone here is missing this critical point. The USA does not value human life as having value itself outside of what someone can contribute economically. Everyone talking about GDP, and "missing out" on AI, tech, etc. Life has value outside of economic contributions. It's not a matter of "missing out" it's different priorities and philosophies of how to structure a human society. Endless growth is not sustainable, and the late stage capitalism happening in the US right now is not sustainable. Why would anyone want to model themselves after it, seeing all of its failures and the enormous wealth gap it has created?
- galangalalgol 9mo ago
  Free healthcare and social welfare I'm in agreement on. But why does at will employment need to conflict with that? The problems of wage values, food and shelter, and healthcare can be handled completely independently of employment. If someone feels it is too easy to do nothing without requiring employment to gain some of those benefits, you can have the government as an employer of last resort. But making it easy for anyone and everyone to start and maintain a business is a societal good. We are asking why doesn't a person have guaranteed employment, when we should ask why do they need it. If a person was let go and could with empty pockets be assured of food shelter and healthcare, and also be able to start their own company on the way home from being let go, that is the society I'd want to live in.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    At will employment is something we'll never accept here. We don't need the threat of having nothing from one day to the next. It's good for billionaires but not for actual people that matter. Running a business is not something everyone should have to do anyway. It's good if it's hard. That keeps the cowboys at bay. I would never ever want to own a business. I don't need that uncertainty. I just want a stable wage. The prevailing idea here is that the US is best at everything and its model will always win. But in reality it's been in decline for a long time and it's become a pretty toxic society I don't want to see here in Europe. Trump is only a symptom of that but not the cause. The real cause is a top layer (which many HN commenters are part of) that is getting ever richer and a huge disadvantaged mass that is stagnant or declining. Their anger is what drives MAGA. Also called late stage capitalism. Going even more capitalist is not the way to fix or prevent that.
    - galangalalgol 9mo ago
      I agree with everything you said except for the cowboys bit. I don't think business owners should be a separate class of people. It shouldn't be unusual to meet people that own their business. I don't want to do it, it would stress me. But we can let random people try random ideas without having to start out wealthy, and we shouldn't have the failure of that business and the loss of those employees' jobs, risk the health and well-being of those let go. If getting fired just meant you had to do with fewer luxuries until you found another, we wouldn't need to protect those jobs to the detriment of a business. By tying employment to safety and well-being, we complicate the whole matter.
- ExoticPearTree 9mo ago
  > We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US. Only lazy people want to be employed for life somewhere. All the benefits, no responsibility.
  - socksy 9mo ago
    Good thing then that there's a range of options between being let go immediately for no reason and companies being forced to employ bad employees for life.
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      Yes and that's basically what we have in most of Europe. Only France really has a bit of the latter. You can get rid of employees. You just have to show to the court that is necessary. Circumstances depend on whether it's individual performance or business need etc. But the at will is very harsh and we don't want this here.
      - joe_mamba 9mo ago
        AUstria (and especially Switzerland) has virtually at-will employment. No need to show anything to any court, just the notice period. Job security is virtually non existent.
      - anonzzzies 9mo ago
        In NL I guess that is similar to France; in our case we always started a binder on a new employee so after their trial period/temp contract, we continue collecting info. If that person just waited for the trial to be over to just do nothing, we go to the court with the binder and get them out. We stopped after a certain period depending on what we collected so far: most binders are empty anyway. Also, you can fire someone without that if you have economic cause (which should be the reason for firing someone good) or you can fire them without that by paying them some months in the future. The most annoying people, which we didnt have many but still a few, are the ones who, right after the trial period, or when they smell a rat, will go 'oh no, i feel something behind my eye and in my wrist, your work made me ill' and then go home. you would have to pay them and be nice about it (not threaten them with a beating).

wolvoleo 9mo ago

Those things are as designed. This is good. We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US. We want to have rights as employees. We want to have social welfare. We want our free healthcare. It's not a bug it's a feature. We don't want an American-style society. Current developments should be enough reason to understand why (and the understanding that Trump's backers are part of a huge group of people on the low side of the wealth gap). If anything we have too much of that already hence the rise of extreme right here too. It's a result of the austerity movements after the 2007 crash. But this new regulation doesn't invalidate employee rights no. It's just about registration and incorporation.

WarmWash 9mo ago
The EU has a borderline stagnant economy, couldn't defend itself from Russia, facing population collapse, totally whiffed on the tech scene explosion in the last 25 years, now also missing out on AI. European social obligations are expensive, yet nobody seems to really want to stress about creating new sources of wealth. At some point Europeans need to look in the mirror, and understand that the last 30 years has been a vacation, and even worse, there is now a whole generation who was born on vacation and thinks it's the norm.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  We can defend ourselves, it's just that the US didn't want a too-powerful Europe until trump. In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that. We'll have to scale this up now but it is not a big problem. Population collapse is a good thing. We already have too many people in this world, causing environmental and housing issues. We can't keep ever growing as humanity, stabilisation or even a reduction is very good. It'll cause some short term cash flow and elderly care issues but we'll deal with that. And AI so far is more of a hollow promise and hype. It's not a race, the way America is approaching it it's inevitably going to lead to a bubble collapse.
  - codingcodingboy 9mo ago
    "In particular nuclear. They heavily pushed against that." Saw this yesterday related to nuclear deterrence in Italy. https://x.com/NichoConcu/status/2012882747434426605 https://x.com/NichoConcu/status/2012882747434426605
  - WarmWash 9mo ago
    Europe didn't want a too powerful Europe until Trump. Are you going to look me in the eyes and say that you, and your general Euro brethren, have been pushing for a greater defense budget at the expense of greater social program spending for the last 30 years. Please, please make that statement. C'mon... This is the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to buy gas from Russia, the same Europe that thought it would be a good idea to have a fully American tech stack, and the same Europe (whose largest company is an automotive one) that is importing cheap Chinese cars. Anything to avoid having to leave their 30 year vacation.
    - wolvoleo 9mo ago
      No, but back then the US was a trusted partner. They wanted to provide military protection in return for geopolitical influence. Both are gone now of course. However I don't think we need a huge military in terms of boots on the ground. We just need a nuclear umbrella to avoid the likes of Putin to roll into europe. Most of our foreign military adventures were requested by the US and only about oil, not safety related. Even the nato article 5 afghanistan trip was completely useless (bin laden wasn't even there, afghanistan had nothing to do with the attacks and since everyone pulled out things are 100% back the way they were). And yeah we bought too much American tech and chinese manufacturing (but so does America obviously). Cars aren't that important to single out, a lot of us don't even have one. And Europe was a lot more socialist > 30 years ago. It's the last decades that the neoliberalists (including the EU itself which has strong neoliberal underpinnings) have been hollowing out social protections in favour of business. This is what I mean when I say the US model isn't necessarily the best. Americans are often completely convinced of that, that there is no other way than ultracapitalism and heartless social policies. I absolutely don't agree there. The US is best at making some people insane amounts of money but it's not great for social cohesion and a decent life for everyone.
usrnm 9mo ago
Refusal to learn and change, even if it means learning from people you disagree with, is simply arrogant and stupid. The US is the biggest economy in the world with the strongest tech sector in the world, they are obviously doing something right. And many personal accounts from people doing business in the EU in this thread show that the EU is doing at least some things wrong.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  We don't care only about money. We're doing pretty great, we have some issues like housing cost but the US has those too. I'm happy with my life and I don't feel like there's something missing that having more money would fix. Less employment and welfare rights would cause a lot of worry and uncertainty though. It's not all about economy and getting ever more more more like the US. I'm pretty happy living here and I would never move to the US. In fact right now I wouldn't even visit it but hopefully the status quo doesn't last forever. And it's not all about business. But about people, the employees.
  - thewebguyd 9mo ago
    > And it's not all about business. But about people, the employees. Everyone here is missing this critical point. The USA does not value human life as having value itself outside of what someone can contribute economically. Everyone talking about GDP, and "missing out" on AI, tech, etc. Life has value outside of economic contributions. It's not a matter of "missing out" it's different priorities and philosophies of how to structure a human society. Endless growth is not sustainable, and the late stage capitalism happening in the US right now is not sustainable. Why would anyone want to model themselves after it, seeing all of its failures and the enormous wealth gap it has created?
galangalalgol 9mo ago
Free healthcare and social welfare I'm in agreement on. But why does at will employment need to conflict with that? The problems of wage values, food and shelter, and healthcare can be handled completely independently of employment. If someone feels it is too easy to do nothing without requiring employment to gain some of those benefits, you can have the government as an employer of last resort. But making it easy for anyone and everyone to start and maintain a business is a societal good. We are asking why doesn't a person have guaranteed employment, when we should ask why do they need it. If a person was let go and could with empty pockets be assured of food shelter and healthcare, and also be able to start their own company on the way home from being let go, that is the society I'd want to live in.
- wolvoleo 9mo ago
  At will employment is something we'll never accept here. We don't need the threat of having nothing from one day to the next. It's good for billionaires but not for actual people that matter. Running a business is not something everyone should have to do anyway. It's good if it's hard. That keeps the cowboys at bay. I would never ever want to own a business. I don't need that uncertainty. I just want a stable wage. The prevailing idea here is that the US is best at everything and its model will always win. But in reality it's been in decline for a long time and it's become a pretty toxic society I don't want to see here in Europe. Trump is only a symptom of that but not the cause. The real cause is a top layer (which many HN commenters are part of) that is getting ever richer and a huge disadvantaged mass that is stagnant or declining. Their anger is what drives MAGA. Also called late stage capitalism. Going even more capitalist is not the way to fix or prevent that.
  - galangalalgol 9mo ago
    I agree with everything you said except for the cowboys bit. I don't think business owners should be a separate class of people. It shouldn't be unusual to meet people that own their business. I don't want to do it, it would stress me. But we can let random people try random ideas without having to start out wealthy, and we shouldn't have the failure of that business and the loss of those employees' jobs, risk the health and well-being of those let go. If getting fired just meant you had to do with fewer luxuries until you found another, we wouldn't need to protect those jobs to the detriment of a business. By tying employment to safety and well-being, we complicate the whole matter.
ExoticPearTree 9mo ago
> We don't want "at-will" employment like in the US. Only lazy people want to be employed for life somewhere. All the benefits, no responsibility.
- socksy 9mo ago
  Good thing then that there's a range of options between being let go immediately for no reason and companies being forced to employ bad employees for life.
  - wolvoleo 9mo ago
    Yes and that's basically what we have in most of Europe. Only France really has a bit of the latter. You can get rid of employees. You just have to show to the court that is necessary. Circumstances depend on whether it's individual performance or business need etc. But the at will is very harsh and we don't want this here.
    - joe_mamba 9mo ago
      AUstria (and especially Switzerland) has virtually at-will employment. No need to show anything to any court, just the notice period. Job security is virtually non existent.
    - anonzzzies 9mo ago
      In NL I guess that is similar to France; in our case we always started a binder on a new employee so after their trial period/temp contract, we continue collecting info. If that person just waited for the trial to be over to just do nothing, we go to the court with the binder and get them out. We stopped after a certain period depending on what we collected so far: most binders are empty anyway. Also, you can fire someone without that if you have economic cause (which should be the reason for firing someone good) or you can fire them without that by paying them some months in the future. The most annoying people, which we didnt have many but still a few, are the ones who, right after the trial period, or when they smell a rat, will go 'oh no, i feel something behind my eye and in my wrist, your work made me ill' and then go home. you would have to pay them and be nice about it (not threaten them with a beating).