6 ms·

What i find fascinating is that, if we hold that Trump being elected twice was because of frustration and rage against society, this is the way they are now whe

What i find fascinating is that, if we hold that Trump being elected twice was because of frustration and rage against society, this is the way they are now when the US is literally the most dominant country in the world. Can you imagine the rage, if the US actually saw real decline. Christ

gonzo41 9mo ago
What would you consider real decline? I would say children having worse prospects than their parents at the same age is a good indicator of it. The big issues IMO are: The housing market locking out young people and The jobs market being brutal to graduates. Things are not so great at the moment.
- JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
  > What would you consider real decline? Honestly? When America nukes someone or itself. Empires decline slowly then suddenly, and that final bit tends to involve a tantrum. The only exception is when they’re conquered.
- tasuki 9mo ago
  > I would say children having worse prospects than their parents at the same age is a good indicator of it. People talk about "worse prospects" all the time. It irks me: you know nothing what your "prospects" are. That's why they're prospects! > The big issues IMO are: The housing market locking out young people The housing is still there. All those old people are gonna die. Who do you think will get the housing?
  - philistine 9mo ago
    The housing is a house, but it's also a financial vehicle to wealth accumulation. Younger generations have been shut out of that wealth. When the old people are dead can we be so sure the wealth enrichment mechanisms will be left standing?
    - Tadpole9181 9mo ago
      We know for a fact it won't. Care systems and demograph-targeting machines (sunsetter vacations, scams, etc) are siphoning every drop of wealth from the elderly.
  - cal_dent 9mo ago
    i think they'll be lots of kids out there banking on inheritance who will find themselves surprised by how much aged and end of life care cost soon
    - Grum9 9mo ago
      In the middle of it right now with a grandparent. $5000 - $8000 month and you might still find them frozen to death out in the snow if the staff drops the ball in the middle of the night.
    - tasuki 9mo ago
      Sure, if someone wants to get rid of their parents in a humane 21st-century way, by way of an elder care facility, it probably costs a lot. People used to die living with their family. Perhaps they died earlier, and sure there were some problems with that setup, but I don't think it was necessarily worse for the dying. It was certainly cheaper for everyone. I don't know anyone who wanted to go to an elder care home. My grandma spent her last three months in an elder care home: all she talked about was going home.
      - cal_dent 9mo ago
        I agree with the sentiment of this post but there is also a consideration here that the world has moved on from a non-elder care end of life for many. Jobs have become increasingly concentrated in certain cities, which has prompted more migration away from many people's place of birth (whether town, region or country). You also have many people having much smaller homes relative to the past because they've moved to high density cities for jobs. Their ability to just have their parents in the home isn't so straightforward anymore.
    - rawgabbit 9mo ago
      In the US, once you are in an elder care facility and you run out of money, the facility will try to keep you in. At that time they will apply to Medicaid in your name. After you die, Medicaid will try to claw back funds by putting a lien against your house. There are extremely complicated rules about exemptions etc. https://apnews.com/article/medicaid-estate-recovery-nursing-homes-65d5e637e19dc27bd1bd3b097d239b53 https://apnews.com/article/medicaid-estate-recovery-nursing-...
  - cwst66 9mo ago
    [dead]
rjzzleep 9mo ago
Yup, the worst and most dangerous time is yet to come. This is the country that has the worlds second largest nuclear arsenal. The biggest military logistics infrastructure on the planet and shown a constant willingness to use any force necessary to bend other people to their will.
- netsharc 9mo ago
  One hopes, if it gets that far, somebody in the military will finally defy orders, and although the US has its first coup d'etat, the rule of law can return. I still remember some redditor saying what happened in Nazi Germany couldn't happen in the US because of patriotism. Oh how smug I'd be to ask him "how did that work out?". Hopefully the military doesn't lock step into Armageddon, but "hope" is doing a lot of work there.
  - bulbar 9mo ago
    I hope so, too. But rule of law and democracy at it's core are cultural achievements - enough people must want it and believe in it. I feel like people start to forget why we have them in place. ICE aka executive overstepping is a good example. Police actions are highly regulated for good reasons, it won't only affect "the right people". From what I have heard, a lot of people who voted for Trump don't like the extend of ICE's actions. Even Joe Rogan spoke out. So maybe there's hope. Europe is fighting the very same battle btw. it just has not manifested that obvious everywhere yet. I fear for Germany falling into the hands of fascists once again in the next years, though.
    - jochem9 9mo ago
      The US is considered to be a flawed democracy for about 10 years now[1]. Europe, especially the powerful west, has the most healthy democracies. It's absolutely not a given that the European democracies will survive, people here need to step up in strengthening it against illiberal forces as well, but it's in a much better starting position. Example: in the Netherlands there was a government with an illiberal far right party (Wilder's PVV). They didn't achieve much, but there was a year of stagnation and the far right talking points have become even more normalized. Other democratic institutions, like judges had to be more on the defense. However, nothing fundamental is broken. 1. https://cpsblog.isr.umich.edu/?p=3417 https://cpsblog.isr.umich.edu/?p=3417
iJohnDoe 9mo ago
It’s actually the opposite. It’s not about raging regarding the decline. It’s about many things going well and raging against prosperity for things they don’t agree with. They want to destroy America because it feels good, not because it makes sense.
- kelseydh 9mo ago
  At the peak of the Gilded Age in 1910, the richest 0.00001% of the US population owned wealth equal to 4% of national income. Now, the richest 0.00001% owns 12%. US billionaire oligarchs today are even wealthier than the original robber barons. Source: https://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2020JEP.pdf https://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2020JEP.pdf
metalliqaz 9mo ago
I think you misunderstand where the rage is coming from. If all their countrymen were equally down on their luck, then there would be no rage. Instead, it's the result of one group of people that used to enjoy success watching it all fall apart while different people just do better and better. Exploding inequality simultaneous with DEI obsession was a perfect storm of radicalization. The only thing that's really surprising is that "smart" people didn't see it coming.
- cal_dent 9mo ago
  >If all their countrymen were equally down on their luck, then there would be no rage. Instead, it's the result of one group of people that used to enjoy success watching it all fall apart while different people just do better and better. Sure, but hasn't that been the case the world over, or at least for developing economies? This isn't terribly unique to the US. Most "smart" people could see this coming but as always the question is when? Just have to go back a small ways to the last heydays of communism and inequality was the stick to beat capitalism with. The issue now is that if there is successful destabilisation of world economies in the way this could currently play out, if some brinkmanship isnt pulled back, you're left with a situation where the group of people who have already seen it fall apart realise it can fall apart even more for them, and the other group also see it start to fall apart. All progressions from a higher to a lower order are marked by ruins and mystery and a residue of nameless rage
- michaelhoney 9mo ago
  > simultaneous with DEI obsession there is a group obsessed with DEI, it's true. It's the MAGA folk
  - nailer 9mo ago
    Hiring people based on their race is immoral and framing this as moral is strange. That’s where classical liberals, centrists and the right are coming from when they say the left is obsessed with DEI. I understand you think they are obsessed with dismantling it and that’s a reasonable view too.
  - 9mo ago
kelseydh 9mo ago
America has already been living in a decline of living standards relative to Europe for many decades. EU vs US Comparison Life expectancy EU: 82 yrs US: 78 yrs Infant mortality (per 1,000) EU: 3.3 US: 5.6 Poverty rate (below 50% of median income) EU: 15% US: 18% Public debt EU: 81% of GDP US: 120% of GDP Top 1% wealth share EU: ~25% US: 40% Student debt EU: ~€0 US: $40k Homicides (per 100k) EU: 2 US: 5 Prison population (per 100k) EU: 111 US: 531 Women in workforce EU: 71% US: 57% Workplace deaths (per 100k) EU: 1.63 US: 3.5 Source: OECD, Eurostat, CDC
- derf_ 9mo ago
  All of those are true, yet the US's (PPP-adjusted) per capita GDP was over 37% higher than the EU's in 2024 [0], and GDP growth has significantly outpaced the EU for years. Basically, whenever there was a choice between anything and economic growth, the US chose growth. Other places made different choices. You can argue about which choices were better, and how the results are distributed, but the difference in salaries for most people using this site are even more stark. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=EU-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...
  - Tadpole9181 9mo ago
    Most of their numbers were about the quality of life. It's absolutely absurd to say, > Well you're twice as likely to be killed, more likely to be sick and obese, will die earlier, are more likely to be in poverty under a tech baron, have a poisoned ecosystem, your babies or wife may die or your kids die in school, or they'll go in insane debt to go to their higher education, and if you're not a white man you're basically less human and risk becoming a part of the permanent ~~slave~~ criminal caste... But think of the moderately higher salary potential!!!! > > You know, as long as the economy grows forever and nobody calls any of your debts.
    - Revolution1120 9mo ago
      [dead]
  - 9mo ago
palmotea 9mo ago
> Can you imagine the rage, if the US actually saw real decline. Christ You mean if the decline wasn't focused on poor people in unfashionable areas, and it hit the elites, too? Parts of the US have actually seen real decline, and that's why we have Trump. This wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had policy set by technocrats chasing easily-quantified statistics, and lecturing everyone about how they really ought to feel better because the GDP number go up.
enaaem 9mo ago
The system feels broken because not everyone benefits equally from the American led Western liberal order. The liberal order allowed the creation of the most rich and powerful companies in the US, who had unprecedented access to markets and resources. The people owning these companies or earn super high salaries from these companies tend to believe their success is 100% their own. On the other you have people living pay check to pay check and are one unlucky fall away from medical bankruptcy.

gonzo41 9mo ago

What would you consider real decline? I would say children having worse prospects than their parents at the same age is a good indicator of it. The big issues IMO are: The housing market locking out young people and The jobs market being brutal to graduates. Things are not so great at the moment.

JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
> What would you consider real decline? Honestly? When America nukes someone or itself. Empires decline slowly then suddenly, and that final bit tends to involve a tantrum. The only exception is when they’re conquered.
tasuki 9mo ago
> I would say children having worse prospects than their parents at the same age is a good indicator of it. People talk about "worse prospects" all the time. It irks me: you know nothing what your "prospects" are. That's why they're prospects! > The big issues IMO are: The housing market locking out young people The housing is still there. All those old people are gonna die. Who do you think will get the housing?
- philistine 9mo ago
  The housing is a house, but it's also a financial vehicle to wealth accumulation. Younger generations have been shut out of that wealth. When the old people are dead can we be so sure the wealth enrichment mechanisms will be left standing?
  - Tadpole9181 9mo ago
    We know for a fact it won't. Care systems and demograph-targeting machines (sunsetter vacations, scams, etc) are siphoning every drop of wealth from the elderly.
- cal_dent 9mo ago
  i think they'll be lots of kids out there banking on inheritance who will find themselves surprised by how much aged and end of life care cost soon
  - Grum9 9mo ago
    In the middle of it right now with a grandparent. $5000 - $8000 month and you might still find them frozen to death out in the snow if the staff drops the ball in the middle of the night.
  - tasuki 9mo ago
    Sure, if someone wants to get rid of their parents in a humane 21st-century way, by way of an elder care facility, it probably costs a lot. People used to die living with their family. Perhaps they died earlier, and sure there were some problems with that setup, but I don't think it was necessarily worse for the dying. It was certainly cheaper for everyone. I don't know anyone who wanted to go to an elder care home. My grandma spent her last three months in an elder care home: all she talked about was going home.
    - cal_dent 9mo ago
      I agree with the sentiment of this post but there is also a consideration here that the world has moved on from a non-elder care end of life for many. Jobs have become increasingly concentrated in certain cities, which has prompted more migration away from many people's place of birth (whether town, region or country). You also have many people having much smaller homes relative to the past because they've moved to high density cities for jobs. Their ability to just have their parents in the home isn't so straightforward anymore.
  - rawgabbit 9mo ago
    In the US, once you are in an elder care facility and you run out of money, the facility will try to keep you in. At that time they will apply to Medicaid in your name. After you die, Medicaid will try to claw back funds by putting a lien against your house. There are extremely complicated rules about exemptions etc. https://apnews.com/article/medicaid-estate-recovery-nursing-homes-65d5e637e19dc27bd1bd3b097d239b53 https://apnews.com/article/medicaid-estate-recovery-nursing-...
- cwst66 9mo ago
  [dead]

rjzzleep 9mo ago

Yup, the worst and most dangerous time is yet to come. This is the country that has the worlds second largest nuclear arsenal. The biggest military logistics infrastructure on the planet and shown a constant willingness to use any force necessary to bend other people to their will.

netsharc 9mo ago
One hopes, if it gets that far, somebody in the military will finally defy orders, and although the US has its first coup d'etat, the rule of law can return. I still remember some redditor saying what happened in Nazi Germany couldn't happen in the US because of patriotism. Oh how smug I'd be to ask him "how did that work out?". Hopefully the military doesn't lock step into Armageddon, but "hope" is doing a lot of work there.
- bulbar 9mo ago
  I hope so, too. But rule of law and democracy at it's core are cultural achievements - enough people must want it and believe in it. I feel like people start to forget why we have them in place. ICE aka executive overstepping is a good example. Police actions are highly regulated for good reasons, it won't only affect "the right people". From what I have heard, a lot of people who voted for Trump don't like the extend of ICE's actions. Even Joe Rogan spoke out. So maybe there's hope. Europe is fighting the very same battle btw. it just has not manifested that obvious everywhere yet. I fear for Germany falling into the hands of fascists once again in the next years, though.
  - jochem9 9mo ago
    The US is considered to be a flawed democracy for about 10 years now[1]. Europe, especially the powerful west, has the most healthy democracies. It's absolutely not a given that the European democracies will survive, people here need to step up in strengthening it against illiberal forces as well, but it's in a much better starting position. Example: in the Netherlands there was a government with an illiberal far right party (Wilder's PVV). They didn't achieve much, but there was a year of stagnation and the far right talking points have become even more normalized. Other democratic institutions, like judges had to be more on the defense. However, nothing fundamental is broken. 1. https://cpsblog.isr.umich.edu/?p=3417 https://cpsblog.isr.umich.edu/?p=3417

iJohnDoe 9mo ago

It’s actually the opposite. It’s not about raging regarding the decline. It’s about many things going well and raging against prosperity for things they don’t agree with. They want to destroy America because it feels good, not because it makes sense.

kelseydh 9mo ago
At the peak of the Gilded Age in 1910, the richest 0.00001% of the US population owned wealth equal to 4% of national income. Now, the richest 0.00001% owns 12%. US billionaire oligarchs today are even wealthier than the original robber barons. Source: https://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2020JEP.pdf https://gabriel-zucman.eu/files/SaezZucman2020JEP.pdf

metalliqaz 9mo ago

I think you misunderstand where the rage is coming from. If all their countrymen were equally down on their luck, then there would be no rage. Instead, it's the result of one group of people that used to enjoy success watching it all fall apart while different people just do better and better. Exploding inequality simultaneous with DEI obsession was a perfect storm of radicalization. The only thing that's really surprising is that "smart" people didn't see it coming.

cal_dent 9mo ago
>If all their countrymen were equally down on their luck, then there would be no rage. Instead, it's the result of one group of people that used to enjoy success watching it all fall apart while different people just do better and better. Sure, but hasn't that been the case the world over, or at least for developing economies? This isn't terribly unique to the US. Most "smart" people could see this coming but as always the question is when? Just have to go back a small ways to the last heydays of communism and inequality was the stick to beat capitalism with. The issue now is that if there is successful destabilisation of world economies in the way this could currently play out, if some brinkmanship isnt pulled back, you're left with a situation where the group of people who have already seen it fall apart realise it can fall apart even more for them, and the other group also see it start to fall apart. All progressions from a higher to a lower order are marked by ruins and mystery and a residue of nameless rage
michaelhoney 9mo ago
> simultaneous with DEI obsession there is a group obsessed with DEI, it's true. It's the MAGA folk
- nailer 9mo ago
  Hiring people based on their race is immoral and framing this as moral is strange. That’s where classical liberals, centrists and the right are coming from when they say the left is obsessed with DEI. I understand you think they are obsessed with dismantling it and that’s a reasonable view too.
- 9mo ago

kelseydh 9mo ago

America has already been living in a decline of living standards relative to Europe for many decades. EU vs US Comparison Life expectancy EU: 82 yrs US: 78 yrs Infant mortality (per 1,000) EU: 3.3 US: 5.6 Poverty rate (below 50% of median income) EU: 15% US: 18% Public debt EU: 81% of GDP US: 120% of GDP Top 1% wealth share EU: ~25% US: 40% Student debt EU: ~€0 US: $40k Homicides (per 100k) EU: 2 US: 5 Prison population (per 100k) EU: 111 US: 531 Women in workforce EU: 71% US: 57% Workplace deaths (per 100k) EU: 1.63 US: 3.5 Source: OECD, Eurostat, CDC

derf_ 9mo ago
All of those are true, yet the US's (PPP-adjusted) per capita GDP was over 37% higher than the EU's in 2024 [0], and GDP growth has significantly outpaced the EU for years. Basically, whenever there was a choice between anything and economic growth, the US chose growth. Other places made different choices. You can argue about which choices were better, and how the results are distributed, but the difference in salaries for most people using this site are even more stark. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=EU-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat...
- Tadpole9181 9mo ago
  Most of their numbers were about the quality of life. It's absolutely absurd to say, > Well you're twice as likely to be killed, more likely to be sick and obese, will die earlier, are more likely to be in poverty under a tech baron, have a poisoned ecosystem, your babies or wife may die or your kids die in school, or they'll go in insane debt to go to their higher education, and if you're not a white man you're basically less human and risk becoming a part of the permanent ~~slave~~ criminal caste... But think of the moderately higher salary potential!!!! > > You know, as long as the economy grows forever and nobody calls any of your debts.
  - Revolution1120 9mo ago
    [dead]
- 9mo ago

palmotea 9mo ago

> Can you imagine the rage, if the US actually saw real decline. Christ You mean if the decline wasn't focused on poor people in unfashionable areas, and it hit the elites, too? Parts of the US have actually seen real decline, and that's why we have Trump. This wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had policy set by technocrats chasing easily-quantified statistics, and lecturing everyone about how they really ought to feel better because the GDP number go up.

enaaem 9mo ago

The system feels broken because not everyone benefits equally from the American led Western liberal order. The liberal order allowed the creation of the most rich and powerful companies in the US, who had unprecedented access to markets and resources. The people owning these companies or earn super high salaries from these companies tend to believe their success is 100% their own. On the other you have people living pay check to pay check and are one unlucky fall away from medical bankruptcy.