4 ms·

I’m not sure it’s accurate to say Canada ditched the relationship, given that the US imposed massive tariffs and threatened to invade Canada.

by agd 9mo ago

jorblumesea 9mo ago
fair point, forced to break off ties
StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
[flagged]
- jorblumesea 9mo ago
  Being a good ally isn't just doing entirely what the US says the should do. The US needs to coordinate responses to China and work with allies to come to a shared understanding. How the current administration operates is assuming these allied country are fiefdoms. The economic situation in Canada isn't great, and the US could make it stronger, but refuses to. The same feedback is largely true for most US allies. If you want people to decouple from China, you need to offset and fix the underlying reason they are trading with them.
  - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
    I have many complaints about Trump's handling of foreign policy. Don't mistake my tone for approval of his approach. He is needlessly aggressive and domineering. We have tried the carrot approach though. Coalition of the willing. By and large I would say our allies are spiritually willing but physically unable to. If we use Canada for example, I don't think they need to jump at every demand, but things like stopping counterfeit sales (Pacific Mall), taking meaningful steps to stop cartel money laundering (Vancouver), actually meeting military commitments (Ukraine promises). A lot of it doesn't get reported because people don't really want to hear it. Like I said, Trump is not right in his handling of these issues, but Canada allows them to fester because its in their interest.
    - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
      That's pretty vague compared to concrete good ally behaviour like the arrest of Meng Wanzhou.
      - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
        And then waiting 4 years to actually ban his company from operating in Canada.
        deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
        orwin 9mo ago
        China captured 2 Canadians as retaliation. Wanting to de-escalate and get them back seems pretty reasonable. Unless the US proposed a military operation to get them back?
        machomaster 9mo ago
        They still did that. Even though being a pawn in another player's game (USA trying to kill its technological competitor) and paying for it in many different ways was definitely not in the Canada's interests. You seem to have this strange position that "what's good for the US is also automatically good for Canada, or at least it doesn't matter what Canada things and what it's national interests might be; just shut up and do what we say (even if it's a command to jump from the building)".
    - fatbird 9mo ago
      You have a laundry list of complaints about Canada's action wrt the US. What would someone like you on Canada's side of the border offer in response, do you think? All of these issues go back long before Trump, who has made things uniquely worse. But any two countries with as long (and tightly bound) a history as ours are going to have constant points of friction. Are you suggesting Canada is uniquely a "fake friend" in this equation?
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  > They are using the opportunity to enhance their own economy at the expense of the American people. I mean, isn't that what the country is for? If the country did actions not for it's own citizens and residents, what kind of country are you?
  - robocat 9mo ago
    That comment and your reply are both zero-sum thinking. Canada and the USA are both better off with a good trading relationship. Harder to see if you're looking for bad faith trading.
- thomassmith65 9mo ago
  This comment is 10 sentences long but lists not a single, specific example of Canada being a poor ally.
  - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
    The only example I can think of is Canada arresting Meng Wanzhou when the US asked, and not backing down in the face of significant Chinese threats, souring Chinese relationships significantly. But that's an example of Canada being a good ally to the US.
  - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
    1) Multi-year delay in banning Huawei from 5G networks: https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statement-huawei-ban-canadian-5g-networks https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statement-huawei-ban-canadian-5g... Took Canada 4-years longer than the rest of the Five Eyes alliance to ban them, prompting the Biden administration to threaten to terminate the agreement. 2) NORAD/Ballistic missile defense (Not just NATO): https://canadiandefencereview.com/norad-modernization-closing-the-kill-chain/ https://canadiandefencereview.com/norad-modernization-closin... Canada chooses not to participate in the defense of North America from potential threats, deferring the cost and military response entirely to the United States. 3) Canadian Digital Services tax: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/ties-and-knots-bind-united-states-and-canada https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/ties-and-knots-bind-uni... 4) Lax enforcement of cartel money laundering: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/trump-and-fentanyl-what-canada-should-do-next https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/trump-and-fentany... The roughly 100 organized crime groups operating in Canada (including three groups dedicated to supplying fentanyl) are partly drawn to loopholes and lax penalties that allow fentanyl-related money-laundering operations to flourish. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-money-laundering-problem-trump-1.7450357 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-money-laundering-pro... 5) Weak enforcement against counterfeit goods: https://macleans.ca/economy/why-canada-is-a-haven-for-knock-off-goods/ https://macleans.ca/economy/why-canada-is-a-haven-for-knock-... Canada remains the only G7 country on the 2025 USTR Watch List. The 2025 USTR Special 301 Report again expressed concerns with Canada's perceived lack of IP enforcement, particularly at the border and against online piracy. 6) Canada undercutting American efforts to de-risk from China: https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/global-trade-patterns-in-the-wake-of-the-2018-2019-u-s-china-tariff-hikes-20240412.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/glob... https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/as-the-u-s-is-derisking-from-china-Other-foreign-u-s-suppliers-are-relying-more-on-chinese-imports-20240802.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/as-t... I tried to avoid some of the more common ones, like NATO spending, trade dispute, etc. A lot of this stuff, like providing for the common defense, don't make it easy for cartels launder money, don't look the other way on counterfeit goods, aren't unreasonable demands.
- pupppet 9mo ago
  What a load of BS, Canada is the best friend the US could ask for. Remember in 2018 when Canada held Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou under a U.S. extradition request? It tanked Canada/China relations and had trade ramifications Canada is still feeling today.
  - piva00 9mo ago
    It's quite odd, the past days there's been this messaging from different users about how old allies haven't been good allies. First I saw this point about Denmark, now Canada. Hard to understand where this is coming from, it's really odd to see it popping up out of nowhere when barely a year ago this would never have been brought up about any of these countries... Where is the messaging coming from?
    - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
      That’s fair enough. Part of it is the Trump effect. I tend to dive pretty deep into things when they catch my interest. A lot of time we write things off as crazy simply because we don’t understand the context behind the presumption of insanity. So I try to look under the surface so to speak. I want to know why someone feels the way they do, even if their thesis is a little confused. Almost like: “I see you are very passionate about this, let me figure out why.” I try to make the world make sense. Communication is a skill and many otherwise smart people simply fail to invest in it. Curiousity I suppose.
- tharmas 9mo ago
  There are two things Canada is guilty of. 1) it spent far too little on its military 2) it trusted the Americans far too much by tying its economy so deeply with the USA. If you subtract the oil purchased by the USA, Canada has a trade surplus with the USA. A trade surplus that's mostly comprised of finished goods. Canada sells raw materials to the USA and buys finished goods from them. It is the United States that is the fake friend.
  - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
    The lack of public awareness is honestly the biggest issue. I’ve got nothing personally against Canada or the Canadian people. And I certainly don’t think Trump’s approach has benefitted the situation. But I also recognize that his grievance have a level of merit. I can critique a government without blaming a people, right? I disagree with how the Canadian government has been handling itself. I think there is a way to resolve these issues, but I think first Canada has to at least acknowledge they exist. Whenever there is discussion like this people love to flood in, eager to defend our neighbor to the north and stick it to Trump. These issues have persisted through many administrations. You ask why Congress doesn’t stop Trump from his actions? It’s because the political consensus in Washington is that they are needed. I have no doubt whoever comes next will blame Trump and declare a new era of friendship and peace. But these issues will be at the core of any new agreement between the countries. People disagree, countries argue. It’s temporary. America wants Canada to succeed and Canada benefits from America’s success. They are just renorming the relationship a bit, which team dynamics tells us takes us back to the storming phase. Give it time and we’ll be rolling along again.
    - surgical_fire 9mo ago
      I don't think threats of annexation is something people just shrug off in a short amount of time. The US has been burning bridges that may take a long time to rebuild, if ever. "Countries argue", yes. But countries are made of people, and governments tend to be a product of that.
    - machomaster 9mo ago
      > I think there is a way to resolve these issues, but I think first Canada has to at least acknowledge they exist. One can't and shouldn't acknowledge the things that don't exist. Like: - Venezuela's drugs being a big problem in the USA - Russia/China trying to take Greenland - Norwegian government responsible for giving Peace Nobels - Canada's efforts to poison USA with fentanyl They are all fake news and anyone spewing that should ridiculed, not engaged and reasoned with to find the compromise. (Example: since we are talking here and I share my eternal wisdom with you, it is only fair that you should give me all of your weath. Oh, you don't think it is reasonable and don't want to give a random guy anything? Fine, it is a fair compromise then in which you give me half of everything. The Greatest Deal!)

I’m not sure it’s accurate to say Canada ditched the relationship, given that the US imposed massive tariffs and threatened to invade Canada.

by agd 9mo ago

I’m not sure it’s accurate to say Canada ditched the relationship, given that the US imposed massive tariffs and threatened to invade Canada.

jorblumesea 9mo ago

fair point, forced to break off ties

StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago

[flagged]

jorblumesea 9mo ago
Being a good ally isn't just doing entirely what the US says the should do. The US needs to coordinate responses to China and work with allies to come to a shared understanding. How the current administration operates is assuming these allied country are fiefdoms. The economic situation in Canada isn't great, and the US could make it stronger, but refuses to. The same feedback is largely true for most US allies. If you want people to decouple from China, you need to offset and fix the underlying reason they are trading with them.
- StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
  I have many complaints about Trump's handling of foreign policy. Don't mistake my tone for approval of his approach. He is needlessly aggressive and domineering. We have tried the carrot approach though. Coalition of the willing. By and large I would say our allies are spiritually willing but physically unable to. If we use Canada for example, I don't think they need to jump at every demand, but things like stopping counterfeit sales (Pacific Mall), taking meaningful steps to stop cartel money laundering (Vancouver), actually meeting military commitments (Ukraine promises). A lot of it doesn't get reported because people don't really want to hear it. Like I said, Trump is not right in his handling of these issues, but Canada allows them to fester because its in their interest.
  - bryanlarsen 9mo ago
    That's pretty vague compared to concrete good ally behaviour like the arrest of Meng Wanzhou.
    - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
      And then waiting 4 years to actually ban his company from operating in Canada.
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - orwin 9mo ago
        China captured 2 Canadians as retaliation. Wanting to de-escalate and get them back seems pretty reasonable. Unless the US proposed a military operation to get them back?
      - machomaster 9mo ago
        They still did that. Even though being a pawn in another player's game (USA trying to kill its technological competitor) and paying for it in many different ways was definitely not in the Canada's interests. You seem to have this strange position that "what's good for the US is also automatically good for Canada, or at least it doesn't matter what Canada things and what it's national interests might be; just shut up and do what we say (even if it's a command to jump from the building)".
  - fatbird 9mo ago
    You have a laundry list of complaints about Canada's action wrt the US. What would someone like you on Canada's side of the border offer in response, do you think? All of these issues go back long before Trump, who has made things uniquely worse. But any two countries with as long (and tightly bound) a history as ours are going to have constant points of friction. Are you suggesting Canada is uniquely a "fake friend" in this equation?
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
embedding-shape 9mo ago
> They are using the opportunity to enhance their own economy at the expense of the American people. I mean, isn't that what the country is for? If the country did actions not for it's own citizens and residents, what kind of country are you?
- robocat 9mo ago
  That comment and your reply are both zero-sum thinking. Canada and the USA are both better off with a good trading relationship. Harder to see if you're looking for bad faith trading.
thomassmith65 9mo ago
This comment is 10 sentences long but lists not a single, specific example of Canada being a poor ally.
- bryanlarsen 9mo ago
  The only example I can think of is Canada arresting Meng Wanzhou when the US asked, and not backing down in the face of significant Chinese threats, souring Chinese relationships significantly. But that's an example of Canada being a good ally to the US.
- StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
  1) Multi-year delay in banning Huawei from 5G networks: https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statement-huawei-ban-canadian-5g-networks https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statement-huawei-ban-canadian-5g... Took Canada 4-years longer than the rest of the Five Eyes alliance to ban them, prompting the Biden administration to threaten to terminate the agreement. 2) NORAD/Ballistic missile defense (Not just NATO): https://canadiandefencereview.com/norad-modernization-closing-the-kill-chain/ https://canadiandefencereview.com/norad-modernization-closin... Canada chooses not to participate in the defense of North America from potential threats, deferring the cost and military response entirely to the United States. 3) Canadian Digital Services tax: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/ties-and-knots-bind-united-states-and-canada https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/ties-and-knots-bind-uni... 4) Lax enforcement of cartel money laundering: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/trump-and-fentanyl-what-canada-should-do-next https://www.fraserinstitute.org/commentary/trump-and-fentany... The roughly 100 organized crime groups operating in Canada (including three groups dedicated to supplying fentanyl) are partly drawn to loopholes and lax penalties that allow fentanyl-related money-laundering operations to flourish. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-money-laundering-problem-trump-1.7450357 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-money-laundering-pro... 5) Weak enforcement against counterfeit goods: https://macleans.ca/economy/why-canada-is-a-haven-for-knock-off-goods/ https://macleans.ca/economy/why-canada-is-a-haven-for-knock-... Canada remains the only G7 country on the 2025 USTR Watch List. The 2025 USTR Special 301 Report again expressed concerns with Canada's perceived lack of IP enforcement, particularly at the border and against online piracy. 6) Canada undercutting American efforts to de-risk from China: https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/global-trade-patterns-in-the-wake-of-the-2018-2019-u-s-china-tariff-hikes-20240412.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/glob... https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/as-the-u-s-is-derisking-from-china-Other-foreign-u-s-suppliers-are-relying-more-on-chinese-imports-20240802.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/as-t... I tried to avoid some of the more common ones, like NATO spending, trade dispute, etc. A lot of this stuff, like providing for the common defense, don't make it easy for cartels launder money, don't look the other way on counterfeit goods, aren't unreasonable demands.
pupppet 9mo ago
What a load of BS, Canada is the best friend the US could ask for. Remember in 2018 when Canada held Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou under a U.S. extradition request? It tanked Canada/China relations and had trade ramifications Canada is still feeling today.
- piva00 9mo ago
  It's quite odd, the past days there's been this messaging from different users about how old allies haven't been good allies. First I saw this point about Denmark, now Canada. Hard to understand where this is coming from, it's really odd to see it popping up out of nowhere when barely a year ago this would never have been brought up about any of these countries... Where is the messaging coming from?
  - StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
    That’s fair enough. Part of it is the Trump effect. I tend to dive pretty deep into things when they catch my interest. A lot of time we write things off as crazy simply because we don’t understand the context behind the presumption of insanity. So I try to look under the surface so to speak. I want to know why someone feels the way they do, even if their thesis is a little confused. Almost like: “I see you are very passionate about this, let me figure out why.” I try to make the world make sense. Communication is a skill and many otherwise smart people simply fail to invest in it. Curiousity I suppose.
tharmas 9mo ago
There are two things Canada is guilty of. 1) it spent far too little on its military 2) it trusted the Americans far too much by tying its economy so deeply with the USA. If you subtract the oil purchased by the USA, Canada has a trade surplus with the USA. A trade surplus that's mostly comprised of finished goods. Canada sells raw materials to the USA and buys finished goods from them. It is the United States that is the fake friend.
- StephenHerlihyy 9mo ago
  The lack of public awareness is honestly the biggest issue. I’ve got nothing personally against Canada or the Canadian people. And I certainly don’t think Trump’s approach has benefitted the situation. But I also recognize that his grievance have a level of merit. I can critique a government without blaming a people, right? I disagree with how the Canadian government has been handling itself. I think there is a way to resolve these issues, but I think first Canada has to at least acknowledge they exist. Whenever there is discussion like this people love to flood in, eager to defend our neighbor to the north and stick it to Trump. These issues have persisted through many administrations. You ask why Congress doesn’t stop Trump from his actions? It’s because the political consensus in Washington is that they are needed. I have no doubt whoever comes next will blame Trump and declare a new era of friendship and peace. But these issues will be at the core of any new agreement between the countries. People disagree, countries argue. It’s temporary. America wants Canada to succeed and Canada benefits from America’s success. They are just renorming the relationship a bit, which team dynamics tells us takes us back to the storming phase. Give it time and we’ll be rolling along again.
  - surgical_fire 9mo ago
    I don't think threats of annexation is something people just shrug off in a short amount of time. The US has been burning bridges that may take a long time to rebuild, if ever. "Countries argue", yes. But countries are made of people, and governments tend to be a product of that.
  - machomaster 9mo ago
    > I think there is a way to resolve these issues, but I think first Canada has to at least acknowledge they exist. One can't and shouldn't acknowledge the things that don't exist. Like: - Venezuela's drugs being a big problem in the USA - Russia/China trying to take Greenland - Norwegian government responsible for giving Peace Nobels - Canada's efforts to poison USA with fentanyl They are all fake news and anyone spewing that should ridiculed, not engaged and reasoned with to find the compromise. (Example: since we are talking here and I share my eternal wisdom with you, it is only fair that you should give me all of your weath. Oh, you don't think it is reasonable and don't want to give a random guy anything? Fine, it is a fair compromise then in which you give me half of everything. The Greatest Deal!)