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> I don’t mind the ways in which my job is dysfunctional, because it matches the ways in which I myself am dysfunctional As a fellow traveller, I offer one ca

• johnisgood 9mo ago
  Yeah, I am still learning to not be logical and fix whatever ails her. Often she really just wants to be heard, not solutions. I am ~30 years old, hopefully I will be able to just hear, without offering any solutions. It bothers me too. I am a SWE because I love solving problems!
  • TeMPOraL 9mo ago
    > It bothers me too. I am a SWE because I love solving problems! In my case, I've recently been wondering whether I really love solving problems, or rather just hate stupid bullshit and solving it - quickly and efficiently - is usually the best way to make it go away for good. In many cases, the behavior is identical - I just find myself to be motivated by frustration more often than curiosity these days.
    • johnisgood 9mo ago
      Yeah, I can relate. I would say I am motivated by frustration more than curiosity as well, not just with regarding to my partner but in general.
  • MarkLowenstein 9mo ago
    The real trouble is knowing what being heard, means. For me, as long as no one's intending to make this situation better, I'd like to go do other things. How long do I have to stay there pretending to lament that her life is so hard--especially when part of that is because she hates having her problems solved?
• dmichulke 9mo ago
  Good point. Tangentially, you could ask: Are you addicted to being useful or to being recognized as useful. One is your own need, the other often a covered contract where you lash out or silently resign if you don't get the recognition that you think you deserve.
  • amelius 9mo ago
    I'm surprised nobody asks whether you're at fault here, or she is. Next time, maybe ask her to come up with solutions, e.g. do a brainstorm session. If she then says she doesn't really want a solution, you can tell her then don't phrase your issues like that.
    • krisoft 9mo ago
      > asks whether you're at fault here, or she is Or maybe nobody is? Why does someone has to be “at fault”? > you can tell her then don't phrase your issues like that. Sometimes people just want to be heard. There is value in recognising that.
    • lazide 9mo ago
      Pro tip - that usually just makes people angrier haha. (Source: twice divorced, and was - per the court - always right, but it didn’t help me one bit). The challenge is, some people (most) get stuck on some emotional thing, and will drain you dry if you try to even engage with them on it. It’s especially prevalent right now.
      • TeMPOraL 9mo ago
        > The challenge is, some people (most) get stuck on some emotional thing, and will drain you dry if you try to even engage with them on it. It’s especially prevalent right now. Yup. I've long learned to suppress my problem-solver nature because "people want to be heard", but then what it gets is turning me into a sounding board for people who get stuck on something indefinitely. It's easy to not jump in with solutions the first time you hear a story, but it's much harder when you hear the exact same story, with exact same underlying emotion, dozen+ times in the span of a few months. The other side is clearly not really processing their emotions - so if not that, and not practical advice, then what's the point of even talking about it? It's really draining and in some cases I'm not in a position to disengage either.
• kakacik 9mo ago
  This is kind of typical situation with men and women right, they need their girl friend coffee complaint time, we guys need similar beer time, albeit contents vary wildly. At least what you write fits every ex-gf I dated, and also fits my guy-brain expectations and resulting type of discussions. Part of the setup by default, but should not take decades to discover or reveal. Similar to how women experience stuff mainly via emotions, hence what was fine yesterday may not be today albeit factually nothing changed. 101 of each adult should be also figuring out how one works (and how doesn't) and optimizing with other relevant parties further interactions.
• sdoering 9mo ago
  > I tend to need to solve All The Problems before I can do any self-care I can so relate. I once read something that shifted my perspective a bit and helped me start the work of learning to better care for myself. It was basically somebody talking/writing about the safety instructions when taking a flight. They tell you that in case of an emergency, when the o2 masks drop down to first put your ownmas on, before helping others. Because you are no help, if you loose conciousness. This image/metaphor , to first put my own mask on, so that I can ensure, I will be able to help others without falling over, was what helped me start this process. I sadly can't remember if it was Brené Brown or where I originally read that.
  • pjmorris 9mo ago
    It's a great analogy. I first came across it in Gerald Weinberg's 'More Secrets of Consulting: The Consultant's Tool Kit', where he spends some time talking about burnout, what it means, and how to get out when you find your way in.
    • hackable_sand 9mo ago
      For a more spiritual audience: the analogy is also widely recognized in the Bible
      • wrsh07 9mo ago
        For what it's worth, I wanted to downvote this because it doesn't provide much additional context. Which verses? Is there a link? (I didn't downvote) Saying "oh yeah the bible mentions that" doesn't really add to a conversation - the bible mentions a lot of stuff! However, if I downvote you because you didn't provide context, you might misinterpret it as "wow, hacker news hates the bible" (I have no opinion on hn audience feelings towards religion) So for additional context, one could look up the "speck vs log" which seems most straightforwardly about taking care of your own issues first (although it's in the context of hypocrisy, which doesn't quite match the original thread iiuc) I found a few others, but none quite seemed like the close match I was hoping for (Mark 12:31, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, etc)
• n4r9 9mo ago
  I frame it not as turning a dial down, but as switching channel from practical problem-solver to emotional problem-solver. Often when someone wants to talk about a situation involving difficult feelings, they're actually trying to process those feelings: to understand where the feelings are coming from, to be validated, and to be able to take a broader perspective. You can help by being curious about what they're saying, reflecting it back to them in your own terms, explaining how what they're feeling is understandable, and offering context or alternative viewpoints. These are actually complex problem-solving skills, although they can all fall under the umbrella of what people mean when they say "to be heard". As a man, I've realised that once my emotions feel validated and accepted, I relax and the practical solutions just pop into my mind.
  • lazide 9mo ago
    Be careful you don’t end up with people who have constant emotional problems that need fixing - or that you’re 100% sure that you’ll never need to say ‘no’. Speaking from experience. Some people really don’t like ‘no’, especially when they have emotional problems.
    • n4r9 9mo ago
      I've heard that's true; compassion and empathy can be a draw for highly insecure people. You need to balance it with assertiveness and self-regulation, which are also part of emotional intelligence.
    • Aurornis 9mo ago
      Another pitfall with this approach is when someone has constant emotional but irrational reactions to everything. Being the person who validates their emotions becomes harmful if they’re over-reacting or developing harmful emotional reactions and you’re always there to validate them.
      • Cthulhu_ 9mo ago
        If it becomes damaging to you (the person that is expected to be emotional support), "grey rocking" is the next step. Acknowledge, but don't respond. "uh huh" instead of "I am so sorry" or whatever. Don't take advice from me though.
• opminion 9mo ago
  I'm probably your wife. It could be related to the personality trait of how much of our world model is "in our mind" vs "out there": If I speak with you while working on the world model in my mind, it looks like I just "want to be heard". But your feedback is actually very important, it's just that it should only feed my mental world model. I am then surprised that my math coprocessor reaches for the GPIO.
  • tclancy 9mo ago
    We should probably talk then!
• p0d 9mo ago
  Well said...I have discovered the same in my own marriage of thirty years. I would add that even bringing a good solution in a relationship can go unheard, especially if the motivation is to be the fixer, and to be honest make your own life easier by silencing the other's point of frustration.
• al_borland 9mo ago
  I learned this from the show Parks and Recreation. Ann is pregnant and trying to vent, and Chris is looking to solve all her problems. This drives her nuts. Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdA8QNTqn-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdA8QNTqn-A
• funkyfiddler69 9mo ago
  > not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution Relatable. Is true for even the simplest problems that some people have. Sometimes they just didn't even address it yet and are only becoming adequately aware of it and here you are spelling out a plan of action during a 7 min encounter in the kitchen.
• onion2k 9mo ago
  It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution. Some times people just want to be heard. I'm glad she managed to solve this problem in the end. ;)
  • tclancy 9mo ago
    Same!
• Aurornis 9mo ago
  > It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution. This can become toxic in itself, though. Some times venting and being angry is what someone wants to do, but in a workplace environment that’s not a good thing to implicitly condone and support. I’ve had some team members who just wanted to vent but not discuss solutions and (again, in a workplace, not personal relationship) it was a sign that something deeper was amiss: Being a perpetual victim of their circumstances and believing those circumstances were beyond their control was a safe, comforting place to exist. It was always easier to build up excuses that problems were thrust upon them by others, who could be held solely responsible for the results. In some cases I had to be very clear that they were responsible for working with teammates to address these issues together, not become a passive receiver of everything that happens with their peers. Swooping in as the hero to solve everything for someone else isn’t a good solution, but (in a workplace environment) getting someone to switch from the passive victim mindset to the active mindset of engaging with their own problems is very important. This is one topic where carrying advice from personal romantic relationships into the workplace isn’t a good idea, IMO.
  • tayo42 9mo ago
    The advice to surrive the workplace is to not act like a human lol
    • Aurornis 9mo ago
      Treating workplace relationships with the same techniques as romantic relationships is a bad idea, IMO
  • hypeatei 9mo ago
    Venting all the time can actually be quite harmful to the venter. Negative energy drives change and if all you're doing is offloading then you're going to get stuck in a loop of feeling bad -> vent -> repeat while the underlying problem doesn't get solved.
    • Aurornis 9mo ago
• mutkach 9mo ago
  Super-relatable. Now that I think about it, most of my advice starts something like "Here's what you're gonna do..." Wait, that itself sounds like a problem, but how do I fix it...
• amiga386 9mo ago
  It's Not About The Nail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
• agumonkey 9mo ago
  could this be a difference in male/female brains ? talks implies action for men, while women want to communicate most and maybe plan to act ? just curious, it's an issue that has been mentioned everywhere all the time
  • hydrogen7800 9mo ago
    >could this be a difference in male/female brains ? Maybe socially, but I'm not sure about naturally. It took me a long time to get where the GP is, realizing that some just like to he heard rather than offered solutions. Now I notice that my family are "fixers" and any problem or difficulty is countered with "did you do this" or "you should have done that" or "why don't you.." I now realize I don't like being second guessed in a moment like that, in contrast to the gender stereotype.
    • agumonkey 9mo ago
      true, there are families, groups who have naturally different reaction to the same event..
• ilikecakeandpie 9mo ago
  I usually ask if we're chatting if my partner is looking for any feedback/solution or if she just needs to be mad. It's pretty effective
• RHSeeger 9mo ago
  I specifically ask my wife "Are you looking for me to help you solve this, or just venting?", because I automatically try to solve.
• Insanity 9mo ago
  Yeah one thing that came out of couple therapy with my ex-wife is exactly this. After I started explicitly asking if she wanted “problem solving” or “listening” things improved significantly. Ultimately things did not work out for other reasons, but I have been able to successfully apply this in a new long-term relationship.
• spaceribs 9mo ago
  I've fallen into this problem before, but theres an additional trap you should be aware of: You are not a therapist. You cannot and should not just "listen" to problems that you're not allowed to work on or expect the other person to work on. You are an active member of this persons' life with your own point-of-view and emotional needs, not a dumping ground for emotional flotsam.
  • throwup238 9mo ago
    This is a good point. In countries with well regulated industries, therapists are required to go to therapy themselves for that very reason. It takes training and continual psychological maintenance to be that emotional dumping ground for other people and should not be taken up by normal people lightly.
• nuancebydefault 9mo ago
  In fact being or feeling useful can be addictive. It goes beyond fixing technical problems. If I know someone is sad or in trouble for a longer period of time, I tend to check in regularly. I need to hold myself back, not to do it too often. The reason is probably the dopamine (or some happy neurotransmitter) effect that respectful or thankful people invoke on me. So it is the help<->dopamine transaction.
• jpadkins 9mo ago
  > It took decades for my wife to finally get through and explain not every problem she voices is something that needs a solution. There is a great YT video on this topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg It's not about the nail!
  • gretch 9mo ago
    Yeah so far there's not enough nuance in the discussion. I also like to separate between 1) solvable vs unsolvable problems: e.g. you cannot solve a deceased relative. Also 2) first time vs multiple repeat problems If find it very irritate someone is venting to me repeatedly about solvable problems. But if it's a 1 time unsolvable problem, then it's important to be in listening mode.
    • calcifer 9mo ago
      You are missing the point, though. The complainer decides whether it's a solvable problem or not, not the listener. So "I'll listen if it's unsolvable (to me)" is a non-starter.
      • gretch 9mo ago
        Well I decide if it’s annoying to me and I’m going to tolerate it or lend support.
• xnx 9mo ago
  Classic treatise on this topic: "It's not about the nail" (<2 min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
• jimmydddd 9mo ago
  I saw a show where the listener asks at the beginning of the interaction: "wait, do you want me to try to solve a problem, or just to listen?"
• codelikeawolf 9mo ago
  I've been in therapy for over a year and one of the most valuable things I've learned as a fellow "problem solver" is to run through the "three H's" when something comes up: 1. Do you want to be Helped? 2. Do you want to be Heard? 3. Do you want to be Hugged? I'm still trying to get in the habit of using this approach more often with my partner, and as I do, it has noticeably improved our relationship. It turns out most of the time, she just wants to be hugged.
  • exographicskip 9mo ago
    I've also used "do you need affirmation or advice." I like your 3 H's though!
• ericmcer 9mo ago
  That has been tricky with my partner because many times she legitimately does want me to just handle the problem for her, and then you get into the fuzzy area where it is my job to interpret what she says and her job to communicate what she needs clearly and you are often left with an ambiguous conflict where both parties feel justified. I do generally find it is easier for women to respond with empathy instead of solutions because there is no background expectation that they are capable of fixing a problem their male partner has.
• hinkley 9mo ago
  It becomes more challenging when the person is Carrie Fisher from When Harry Met Sally, “processing” the same information for years at a time. This is not a surprise. That he’s never going to leave her. You know the solution. You are the architect of your own stress. You’re torturing yourself for who? An audience of me? I’ve watched that “you have a nail in your forehead” video again with the benefit of another ten years of life and it’s interesting how I saw what the women were saying the first time I watched it but on a rewatch it’s clearly making fun of her at least as much as him. You’re in the middle of a medical emergency and you want to just talk about it instead of calling 911. That’s a bridge too far. And to think I always hated that trope in action and scary movies where the person wants to ask questions while being chased by a psychopath or a dinosaur. Compartmentalization is good - in appropriate doses.
• carlosjobim 9mo ago
  The solution is to get a gambling addiction, a drug addiction, trouble with the law, or a healthy mix of all three. Then your wife (or husband) will stop bitching to you about their problems, and start bitching to other people about their problem (you).
• m463 9mo ago
  listen, don't problem solve. advice for every engineer, ever, lol. (also related - do you listen, or wait to talk?)
• ryukoposting 9mo ago
  I've been with my wife for almost 4 years, and we both have the same problem. But, we both like having systems and routines, so now we have a system: lead with "I don't need help, I just need to vent." YMMV of course.
• lr4444lr 9mo ago
  Counterpoint - she should have known what she was getting into marrying an engineer. It cones with the territory.
  • tclancy 9mo ago
    I was a nineteen year old majoring in drinking (and Economics), so it doesn’t really count!