2 ms·

What America got, by being the heavyweight in NATO, was the greatest economy the world has ever seen. America got rich by selling Europe a nuclear umbrella, wh

by fatbird 9mo ago

What America got, by being the heavyweight in NATO, was the greatest economy the world has ever seen. America got rich by selling Europe a nuclear umbrella, which kept the peace, and let Europe go cheap on defense and long on developing their own economies in tandem. The USD as global reserve currency means the world loans money to the US at the lowest possible interest rate; the US extended that credit to its businesses and education system and infrastructure. What America loses by gaining Greenland is that worldwide market and those close defense relationships forming a common bloc. The US dollar stops being the reserve currency; America's cheap credit line dries up. American soft power in Europe is gone, and Europe aligns itself with China or Russia for stability, and becomes an American adversary. All so you can have, what, a bunch of melting glaciers?

rayiner 9mo ago
> What America got, by being the heavyweight in NATO, was the greatest economy the world has ever seen. America got rich by selling Europe a nuclear umbrella But this just isn’t true! The U.S. overtook the UK in per capita GDP in 1880, near the peak of the British Empire: https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/us-gdp-per-capita https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/us-gdp-per-cap.... At that point the UK was already significantly richer than the rest of europe. If you look at GDP growth rate, the US has consistently averaged 1.7% GDP per capita growth over the past 200 years. The mass industrialization during the war itself spike growth and helped recovery from the Great Depression, but America didn’t grow dramatically faster during the NATO era than it did before that. The U.S. is rich because its been one of the richest countries in the world since the 18th century and has been extraordinarily stable. It was considerably richer than western Europe even going into the 20th century: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Population-GDP-and-GDP-per-capita-1900-2030-selected-countries-and-the-world-GDP-per_tbl1_228999174 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Population-GDP-and-GDP-p.... In 1900, U.S. gdp per capita was almost 50% higher than western europe. In 1990, it was also about 50%. There was a temporary period right after the war when the U.S. was much richer than western europe, but europe actually grew faster during this 1950-1990 period.
- fatbird 9mo ago
  Okay. What will the stability be like after NATO is shattered and the EU is no longer a market open to the US?
  - rayiner 9mo ago
    Stability will be fine. U.S. exports to the EU are only 1.1% of GDP.
    - judahmeek 9mo ago
      Please go read https://theauthoritarians.org/ https://theauthoritarians.org/
      - rayiner 9mo ago
        Please go read “The Culture Transplant.” https://www.rorotoko.com/11/20230913-jones-garett-on-book-culture-transplant-how-migrants-make-economies-they-move-to-a-lot-like-the-ones-they-left https://www.rorotoko.com/11/20230913-jones-garett-on-book-cu...
        CyberDildonics 9mo ago
        "culture" is meaningless and a non argument anywhere. It is only ever brought up as an emotional argument against something someone is uncomfortable with. It has nothing to do with systems that involve people.
        snark_attack 9mo ago
        [dead]
        mindslight 9mo ago
        I don't understand how you can continue referencing narratives like this one, wear your minority identity on your sleeve like you're still competing in the DEI Olympics, but yet keep failing to see that you're personally responsible for doing exactly as this book bemoans. If you're really concerned about preserving American culture against dilution by immigrants bringing other cultures, have you ever thought that maybe it's time for you personally to hold back with the developing-country-style populist strongman boosting? Not some vague "other" that might come here and do even more of the same, but you personally, right here, right now. If this lauded western European culture is based around consensus, process, and compromise (rough points you've made elsewhere about the importance of culture), surely you can recognize that this culture has something to say about the wisdom of attacking longstanding allies (regardless of any perceived immediate benefit). Essentially, if you see value in the incumbent culture then maybe you should be content deferring to it a bit more while you're still assimilating. I'm sure you're going to have rationalizations aplenty in response to this comment, so all I can really say is perhaps try some self-reflection.
nec4b 9mo ago
USA was already the richest nation before both world wars and way before NATO was established. Europe can't align with Russia, because Russian Empire wants pieces of Europe. It can't align with China, because trading with China is more or less one way and that can be taken away anytime China feels like it.
- disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
  > USA was already the richest nation before both world wars and way before NATO was established. Europe can't align with Russia, because Russian Empire wants pieces of Europe. It can't align with China, because trading with China is more or less one way and that can be taken away anytime China feels like it. In a world where the US is not a trusted partner, I'd expect the EU to do partial deals with the US and China while maintaining pressure on Russia. Lets not forget that the US imports vast amounts of EU capital, and in the new world that makes less and less sense. And the US market having 60% of global equity value is not sustainable in this world either.
Jackson__ 9mo ago
It's not just any pile of melting glaciers, its a pile of melting glaciers that looks really big in mercator projection!!

by fatbird 9mo ago

rayiner 9mo ago

> What America got, by being the heavyweight in NATO, was the greatest economy the world has ever seen. America got rich by selling Europe a nuclear umbrella But this just isn’t true! The U.S. overtook the UK in per capita GDP in 1880, near the peak of the British Empire: https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/us-gdp-per-capita https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/us-gdp-per-cap.... At that point the UK was already significantly richer than the rest of europe. If you look at GDP growth rate, the US has consistently averaged 1.7% GDP per capita growth over the past 200 years. The mass industrialization during the war itself spike growth and helped recovery from the Great Depression, but America didn’t grow dramatically faster during the NATO era than it did before that. The U.S. is rich because its been one of the richest countries in the world since the 18th century and has been extraordinarily stable. It was considerably richer than western Europe even going into the 20th century: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Population-GDP-and-GDP-per-capita-1900-2030-selected-countries-and-the-world-GDP-per_tbl1_228999174 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Population-GDP-and-GDP-p.... In 1900, U.S. gdp per capita was almost 50% higher than western europe. In 1990, it was also about 50%. There was a temporary period right after the war when the U.S. was much richer than western europe, but europe actually grew faster during this 1950-1990 period.

fatbird 9mo ago
Okay. What will the stability be like after NATO is shattered and the EU is no longer a market open to the US?
- rayiner 9mo ago
  Stability will be fine. U.S. exports to the EU are only 1.1% of GDP.
  - judahmeek 9mo ago
    Please go read https://theauthoritarians.org/ https://theauthoritarians.org/
    - rayiner 9mo ago
      Please go read “The Culture Transplant.” https://www.rorotoko.com/11/20230913-jones-garett-on-book-culture-transplant-how-migrants-make-economies-they-move-to-a-lot-like-the-ones-they-left https://www.rorotoko.com/11/20230913-jones-garett-on-book-cu...
      - CyberDildonics 9mo ago
        "culture" is meaningless and a non argument anywhere. It is only ever brought up as an emotional argument against something someone is uncomfortable with. It has nothing to do with systems that involve people.
      - snark_attack 9mo ago
        [dead]
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        I don't understand how you can continue referencing narratives like this one, wear your minority identity on your sleeve like you're still competing in the DEI Olympics, but yet keep failing to see that you're personally responsible for doing exactly as this book bemoans. If you're really concerned about preserving American culture against dilution by immigrants bringing other cultures, have you ever thought that maybe it's time for you personally to hold back with the developing-country-style populist strongman boosting? Not some vague "other" that might come here and do even more of the same, but you personally, right here, right now. If this lauded western European culture is based around consensus, process, and compromise (rough points you've made elsewhere about the importance of culture), surely you can recognize that this culture has something to say about the wisdom of attacking longstanding allies (regardless of any perceived immediate benefit). Essentially, if you see value in the incumbent culture then maybe you should be content deferring to it a bit more while you're still assimilating. I'm sure you're going to have rationalizations aplenty in response to this comment, so all I can really say is perhaps try some self-reflection.

nec4b 9mo ago

USA was already the richest nation before both world wars and way before NATO was established. Europe can't align with Russia, because Russian Empire wants pieces of Europe. It can't align with China, because trading with China is more or less one way and that can be taken away anytime China feels like it.

disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
> USA was already the richest nation before both world wars and way before NATO was established. Europe can't align with Russia, because Russian Empire wants pieces of Europe. It can't align with China, because trading with China is more or less one way and that can be taken away anytime China feels like it. In a world where the US is not a trusted partner, I'd expect the EU to do partial deals with the US and China while maintaining pressure on Russia. Lets not forget that the US imports vast amounts of EU capital, and in the new world that makes less and less sense. And the US market having 60% of global equity value is not sustainable in this world either.

Jackson__ 9mo ago

It's not just any pile of melting glaciers, its a pile of melting glaciers that looks really big in mercator projection!!