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Fair enough, let me step back because I'm getting angry. You're right that "biased in process" and "wrong outcomes" aren't the same thing. A system can have un

by dijit 9mo ago

Fair enough, let me step back because I'm getting angry. You're right that "biased in process" and "wrong outcomes" aren't the same thing. A system can have unfair disparities (wealth based, racial, whatever) without necessarily convicting innocent people at scale. That's a reasonable distinction. But that's not what sparked this thread. Go back to the top: the original claim was "when is the law just in its application?" implying never or nearly never. My position is that it's just more often than not. That's the disagreement. If you're saying the system has procedural problems that create unfair pressure but generally reaches correct guilty/not guilty determinations, then we probably don't disagree much. That's a claim about needing reforms, not about fundamental systemic failure. The issue is when people use "98% plea bargains" or "inherently coercive" to argue the system is fundamentally broken. If that's not what you're arguing, then we're likely closer to agreement than it seemed.

Dylan16807 9mo ago
> But that's not what sparked this thread. Go back to the top: the original claim was "when is the law just in its application?" implying never or nearly never. My position is that it's just more often than not. That's the disagreement. > If you're saying the system has procedural problems that create unfair pressure but generally reaches correct guilty/not guilty determinations, then we probably don't disagree much. That's a claim about needing reforms, not about fundamental systemic failure. An unjust system can still get the right answer most of the time. And I think it's very likely our system applies so much pressure to take a plea bargain that it is unjust. That it is making mistakes at scale that we could avoid with reasonable effort. I would say it's fixably broken, but it probably is broken. And I don't think anyone on this comment page was arguing that a majority of convictions are innocent people.
- dijit 9mo ago
  Dylan, you're a masterclass in saying nothing whilst appearing to argue. You invented that "7%" stuff in a sibling thread from thin air. You claimed nobody was arguing about innocent convictions whilst spending a dozen comments defending why plea coercion is a massive problem. You say the system gets the right answer most of the time but insist it's still unjust. You won't define "broken" but you're certain the system is it. Every time I pin you down, you redefine terms. "Unjust" doesn't mean wrong outcomes, it means procedural pressure. "Broken" doesn't mean failing, it means needs improvement. "Coercive" doesn't mean producing false confessions, it just means... pressure exists, somehow. This is a thread about MLK describing actual injustice: arresting peaceful protesters under correctly applied laws. You've watered "unjust" down to "I don't like some aspects of plea bargaining" and expect that to carry the same moral weight. Here's what you won't say directly but keep implying: that plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. Because if they don't, then your entire argument collapses to "the system works but could be nicer," which isn't a disagreement worth having. My position: the law is applied justly more often than unjustly. You either disagree with that or you don't. No more semantic gymnastics. Which is it?
  - Dylan16807 9mo ago
    > You invented "7%" from thin air. Yes. I said I did. Because when I openly talk about a hypothetical number, people have to focus on whether my logic is correct or incorrect. Because that part of the post was about what implies what. > You claimed nobody was arguing about innocent convictions No. I said nobody argued MOST convictions were innocent. Because you keep talking about MOST convictions to make your arguments. > "Unjust" doesn't mean wrong outcomes Doesn't mean a specific number of wrong outcomes. This is the key miscommunication that has caused the entire argument. A system can be unjust in 100% of cases, but only give the wrong answer in a smaller percent of cases. > "Coercive" doesn't mean producing false confessions, it just means... pressure exists, somehow. coerce: To use force, threat, fraud, or intimidation in an attempt to compel one to act against their will. Edit: To make a clearer statement, whether it's coercion is about whether there is an unreasonable amount of pressure being applied. This has no connection to whether the confession is true or false. > Here's what you won't say directly but keep implying: that plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. Yes. > My position: the law is applied justly more often than unjustly. You either disagree with that or you don't. No more semantic gymnastics. Which. is. it? Ugh, this is annoying when we're disagreeing about what "just" means. The way you're using it, the law is just more often than not. But "more often" is an absolute garbage threshold. We need way way way better than that.
    - dijit 9mo ago
      Alright, let's see if I get this right. You're arguing that a system can apply the law unjustly even when it reaches correct outcomes. I think that's only meaningful if the "unjust application" materially affects people's lives in ways that matter beyond process. So: plea bargains. You say they apply unreasonable pressure. But what makes the pressure unreasonable? A prosecutor offering a reduced sentence for pleading guilty isn't force, threat, fraud, or intimidation. It's a straightforward trade: save the court's time and resources, get a lighter sentence. That's pressure, but it's not inherently unreasonable. You could argue it becomes unreasonable when the alternative is so severe that even innocent people feel compelled to plead. But that's an empirical claim. How often does that happen? You've now said you think plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. That's testable. Where's the evidence? On thresholds: you're right that "more often than not" sounds low for a justice system. But the question is compared to what? Every alternative has error rates. Jury trials have wrongful convictions. Bench trials have wrongful convictions. The question isn't whether the system is perfect, it's whether it's better than the realistic alternatives and whether the error rate is acceptable. What error rate would you accept? Because without that, "we need way way way better" is just saying "it should be perfect," which isn't achievable. The original claim upthread was that the law is rarely applied justly. That's not a claim about error rates being too high, it's a claim that injustice is the norm. Do you actually believe that, or are you arguing something more limited about plea bargaining specifically?

by dijit 9mo ago

Dylan16807 9mo ago

> But that's not what sparked this thread. Go back to the top: the original claim was "when is the law just in its application?" implying never or nearly never. My position is that it's just more often than not. That's the disagreement. > If you're saying the system has procedural problems that create unfair pressure but generally reaches correct guilty/not guilty determinations, then we probably don't disagree much. That's a claim about needing reforms, not about fundamental systemic failure. An unjust system can still get the right answer most of the time. And I think it's very likely our system applies so much pressure to take a plea bargain that it is unjust. That it is making mistakes at scale that we could avoid with reasonable effort. I would say it's fixably broken, but it probably is broken. And I don't think anyone on this comment page was arguing that a majority of convictions are innocent people.

dijit 9mo ago
Dylan, you're a masterclass in saying nothing whilst appearing to argue. You invented that "7%" stuff in a sibling thread from thin air. You claimed nobody was arguing about innocent convictions whilst spending a dozen comments defending why plea coercion is a massive problem. You say the system gets the right answer most of the time but insist it's still unjust. You won't define "broken" but you're certain the system is it. Every time I pin you down, you redefine terms. "Unjust" doesn't mean wrong outcomes, it means procedural pressure. "Broken" doesn't mean failing, it means needs improvement. "Coercive" doesn't mean producing false confessions, it just means... pressure exists, somehow. This is a thread about MLK describing actual injustice: arresting peaceful protesters under correctly applied laws. You've watered "unjust" down to "I don't like some aspects of plea bargaining" and expect that to carry the same moral weight. Here's what you won't say directly but keep implying: that plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. Because if they don't, then your entire argument collapses to "the system works but could be nicer," which isn't a disagreement worth having. My position: the law is applied justly more often than unjustly. You either disagree with that or you don't. No more semantic gymnastics. Which is it?
- Dylan16807 9mo ago
  > You invented "7%" from thin air. Yes. I said I did. Because when I openly talk about a hypothetical number, people have to focus on whether my logic is correct or incorrect. Because that part of the post was about what implies what. > You claimed nobody was arguing about innocent convictions No. I said nobody argued MOST convictions were innocent. Because you keep talking about MOST convictions to make your arguments. > "Unjust" doesn't mean wrong outcomes Doesn't mean a specific number of wrong outcomes. This is the key miscommunication that has caused the entire argument. A system can be unjust in 100% of cases, but only give the wrong answer in a smaller percent of cases. > "Coercive" doesn't mean producing false confessions, it just means... pressure exists, somehow. coerce: To use force, threat, fraud, or intimidation in an attempt to compel one to act against their will. Edit: To make a clearer statement, whether it's coercion is about whether there is an unreasonable amount of pressure being applied. This has no connection to whether the confession is true or false. > Here's what you won't say directly but keep implying: that plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. Yes. > My position: the law is applied justly more often than unjustly. You either disagree with that or you don't. No more semantic gymnastics. Which. is. it? Ugh, this is annoying when we're disagreeing about what "just" means. The way you're using it, the law is just more often than not. But "more often" is an absolute garbage threshold. We need way way way better than that.
  - dijit 9mo ago
    Alright, let's see if I get this right. You're arguing that a system can apply the law unjustly even when it reaches correct outcomes. I think that's only meaningful if the "unjust application" materially affects people's lives in ways that matter beyond process. So: plea bargains. You say they apply unreasonable pressure. But what makes the pressure unreasonable? A prosecutor offering a reduced sentence for pleading guilty isn't force, threat, fraud, or intimidation. It's a straightforward trade: save the court's time and resources, get a lighter sentence. That's pressure, but it's not inherently unreasonable. You could argue it becomes unreasonable when the alternative is so severe that even innocent people feel compelled to plead. But that's an empirical claim. How often does that happen? You've now said you think plea bargains routinely produce false confessions. That's testable. Where's the evidence? On thresholds: you're right that "more often than not" sounds low for a justice system. But the question is compared to what? Every alternative has error rates. Jury trials have wrongful convictions. Bench trials have wrongful convictions. The question isn't whether the system is perfect, it's whether it's better than the realistic alternatives and whether the error rate is acceptable. What error rate would you accept? Because without that, "we need way way way better" is just saying "it should be perfect," which isn't achievable. The original claim upthread was that the law is rarely applied justly. That's not a claim about error rates being too high, it's a claim that injustice is the norm. Do you actually believe that, or are you arguing something more limited about plea bargaining specifically?