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This agreement was reached at almost the same time as Mercosur, the huge EU - South America trade deal. Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention.

by pegasus 9mo ago

usrnm 9mo ago
Mercosur has been under construction for more than two decades, it has little to do with Trump
- hvb2 9mo ago
  It passing does
  - mantas 9mo ago
    I don’t think so. This is not first time euro bureaucrats pull off shit like this. Apply cutthroat regulations locally and push through cheap imports. Then cry about local industries struggling. Rinse and repeat.
    - fakedang 9mo ago
      To be fair, Europe is tired of its farmers rioting and the general public welcomes the trade deal. If the farmers are crying about struggling against competition, I have a tiny violin to play for them.
      - mantas 9mo ago
        Maybe lift all the green deal stuff on our own farmers while at it? Let’s make it a fair competition. What’s next, let in shitty US food? I don’t see general public welcoming it. Most people don’t seem to even know about it. Out of those who do know, many don't seem to be happy about it. Also, fucking over our farmers in unstable world does not seem like a smart thing to do. It’s time to do opposite and double-down on sovereignty on all fronts. And food sovereignty was one of very few sectors where EU got it right. Our food is not cheap, but we got plenty locally and quality is pretty good.
        hvb2 9mo ago
        > Also, fucking over our farmers in unstable world does not seem like a smart thing to do. Everyone can solve this for their own farmers. Just buy local, problem solved. Does that mean some things might be a bit more expensive? Yes, you're paying to keep them around just like you might want someone to pay for you to be employed. If we don't it's a race to the bottom for everyone.
        mantas 9mo ago
        It works when eating at home and making from scratch. How about eating out? Good luck pushing cheaper part of the sector to buy local. And not just pay lip service. And reality is many many people will just buy cheaper option and won’t thin about the impact.
        oaiey 9mo ago
        I do not see any empty fields left and right. Despite farmers complaining since 30 years about every single trade deal. Honestly I have not seen an unused field ever. And as long the fields are producing food this is just a change in income or structure of an industry.
        mantas 9mo ago
        Coming from ex-USSR… I’m used to unused fields. Nowadays situation is better. Where soil is best, all (most?) fields are used. But in other parts of the country unused fields are not uncommon. It doesn’t help that we are getting only a fraction of EU farming subsidies. While fancy machinery cost the same as for western counterparts. So Netherlands with higher wages are outpricing our farmers :D I think it’s matter of time when more and more of those deals will reach the tipping point. And after that it will be very hard to restore local agriculture.
    - hvb2 9mo ago
      I'm not sure it would've happened without the US messing around. Other countries look more favorable now than they did before.
      - mantas 9mo ago
        Favorable in what sense beyond sticking it to US? I’m against similar trade deal with US too. Or pretty much any other country. At best some shitty lobbyists used it as a scapegoat to push through a bad deal.
- selectodude 9mo ago
  Mercosur has been on ice for more than two decades because the US wasn’t a huge fan. Now that we’ve shredded the relationship with both areas, they signed on the dotted line.
mantas 9mo ago
Eh. As a citizen of EU member, I’m not happy about Mercosur deal at all. Hopefully fellow euro electorate is paying attention too. But giving how EU bureaucracy is shielded from the feedback loop, I doubt any outcome in national and EP elections could change anything anytime soon. I feel the same way about some euro leaders pointing to China as possible alternative to US. Fuck no. Sometimes it feels like some people here want to pull off the same shit that is going on in China or US and just wait for a good opportunity. E.g. legendary chat control. But many people pretend it’s all fine and dandy just because.
- azan_ 9mo ago
  Why are you not happy about Mercosur? I'm from EU and I think it's a great deal!
  - oaiey 9mo ago
    It is a trade deal. It is always bad for some, good for others. We are at a crossroads if we continue with globalism in the remaining world or if everyone is on its own. I prefer the first. The EU, Canada, Japan/Korea/other Asian states form a great alliance not associated to China or the US. Will not help military wise, but will help market wise.
    - petre 9mo ago
      Those countries don't export much food, except maybe for maple syrup and instant ramen.
      - wasabi991011 9mo ago
        Wikipedia: > In 2018, Canada was the world's largest producer of rapeseed (20.3 million tonnes), dry pea (3.5 million tonnes) and lentil (2 million tons), the 2nd largest producer of oats in the world (3.4 million tons), the 6th largest world producer of wheat (31.7 million tons) and barley (8.3 million tons), the 7th largest world producer of soy (7.2 million tons), the 10th largest world producer of maize (13.8 million tons) and the 12th largest world producer of potato (5.7 million tonnes). If you consider Canada's small population, this makes Canadian rapeseed a majority of global rapeseed trade, and similarly for oats.
SecretDreams 9mo ago
> Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention. *Hopefully*
827a 9mo ago
Important to remember that the entire Mercosur block has a lower GDP than just California, and around the same GDP as Texas and New York, separately.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
  But now it will be much easier for the Mercosur block to finance the infrastructure needed to become agricultural export powerhouses. Death by a thousand cuts for the USA is just as bad a one fatal blow.
  - 827a 9mo ago
    I don't feel that an "agricultural export powerhouse" is all that desirable a title to own on the global stage, but yes; it is within reach for the Mercosur block. Possibly the only thing within their reach at this point. Agriculture represents ~3% of all US exports, and ~7% of that ~3% flows to the EU; a very small cut indeed.
    - _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
      Sound like some political spin on your part, or just head in the sand. It's how trade starts, small friction reductions. And now that trade is happening anyways, and there are newer better ports, it becomes easier to do more trade. And trade grows. With better new trade routes/infrastructure they aren't just selling the Europe, they are taking more and more market around the world. For the USA that 'tiny' to you 3% is going to wreck a lot of red, agricultural states economies. And they then become drags on other parts of the American economy, and instead of chasing opportunities we're propping things up. Less trade impacts all trade, because suddenly things get tighter for Mississippi shipping. Train lines. There's less synergy, more expense carried by the remaining industry. Less money for maintenance/reinvestment in bulk transportation. Less money going into John Deere and all those agg adjacent companies. Less money for our petrochemical companies (fertilizer) means less reinvestment for them/worse health, higher risk from foreign competition. For example 60% of farm exports travel over rivers, and 20% of coal. So coal shipping prices might get impacted. Maybe coal shipping efficiency as river shipping lanes lose 60% of their business there is less put back into maintaining them. Coal isn't in a position to absorb much shock, it's doing really bad already. Chemicals are 9% of US exports. More ag trade makes it profitable for companies in these other countries to start setting up their own petrochemical factories/industries that will then compete with us as well. Edit: You missed my entire point. But yes, the US is winning by shrinking our export market and needlessly building up competitors. Everyone envies shrinking markets. You got me.

This agreement was reached at almost the same time as Mercosur, the huge EU - South America trade deal. Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention.

by pegasus 9mo ago

This agreement was reached at almost the same time as Mercosur, the huge EU - South America trade deal. Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention.

usrnm 9mo ago

Mercosur has been under construction for more than two decades, it has little to do with Trump

hvb2 9mo ago
It passing does
- mantas 9mo ago
  I don’t think so. This is not first time euro bureaucrats pull off shit like this. Apply cutthroat regulations locally and push through cheap imports. Then cry about local industries struggling. Rinse and repeat.
  - fakedang 9mo ago
    To be fair, Europe is tired of its farmers rioting and the general public welcomes the trade deal. If the farmers are crying about struggling against competition, I have a tiny violin to play for them.
    - mantas 9mo ago
      Maybe lift all the green deal stuff on our own farmers while at it? Let’s make it a fair competition. What’s next, let in shitty US food? I don’t see general public welcoming it. Most people don’t seem to even know about it. Out of those who do know, many don't seem to be happy about it. Also, fucking over our farmers in unstable world does not seem like a smart thing to do. It’s time to do opposite and double-down on sovereignty on all fronts. And food sovereignty was one of very few sectors where EU got it right. Our food is not cheap, but we got plenty locally and quality is pretty good.
      - hvb2 9mo ago
        > Also, fucking over our farmers in unstable world does not seem like a smart thing to do. Everyone can solve this for their own farmers. Just buy local, problem solved. Does that mean some things might be a bit more expensive? Yes, you're paying to keep them around just like you might want someone to pay for you to be employed. If we don't it's a race to the bottom for everyone.
        mantas 9mo ago
        It works when eating at home and making from scratch. How about eating out? Good luck pushing cheaper part of the sector to buy local. And not just pay lip service. And reality is many many people will just buy cheaper option and won’t thin about the impact.
      - oaiey 9mo ago
        I do not see any empty fields left and right. Despite farmers complaining since 30 years about every single trade deal. Honestly I have not seen an unused field ever. And as long the fields are producing food this is just a change in income or structure of an industry.
        mantas 9mo ago
        Coming from ex-USSR… I’m used to unused fields. Nowadays situation is better. Where soil is best, all (most?) fields are used. But in other parts of the country unused fields are not uncommon. It doesn’t help that we are getting only a fraction of EU farming subsidies. While fancy machinery cost the same as for western counterparts. So Netherlands with higher wages are outpricing our farmers :D I think it’s matter of time when more and more of those deals will reach the tipping point. And after that it will be very hard to restore local agriculture.
  - hvb2 9mo ago
    I'm not sure it would've happened without the US messing around. Other countries look more favorable now than they did before.
    - mantas 9mo ago
      Favorable in what sense beyond sticking it to US? I’m against similar trade deal with US too. Or pretty much any other country. At best some shitty lobbyists used it as a scapegoat to push through a bad deal.
selectodude 9mo ago
Mercosur has been on ice for more than two decades because the US wasn’t a huge fan. Now that we’ve shredded the relationship with both areas, they signed on the dotted line.

mantas 9mo ago

Eh. As a citizen of EU member, I’m not happy about Mercosur deal at all. Hopefully fellow euro electorate is paying attention too. But giving how EU bureaucracy is shielded from the feedback loop, I doubt any outcome in national and EP elections could change anything anytime soon. I feel the same way about some euro leaders pointing to China as possible alternative to US. Fuck no. Sometimes it feels like some people here want to pull off the same shit that is going on in China or US and just wait for a good opportunity. E.g. legendary chat control. But many people pretend it’s all fine and dandy just because.

azan_ 9mo ago
Why are you not happy about Mercosur? I'm from EU and I think it's a great deal!
- oaiey 9mo ago
  It is a trade deal. It is always bad for some, good for others. We are at a crossroads if we continue with globalism in the remaining world or if everyone is on its own. I prefer the first. The EU, Canada, Japan/Korea/other Asian states form a great alliance not associated to China or the US. Will not help military wise, but will help market wise.
  - petre 9mo ago
    Those countries don't export much food, except maybe for maple syrup and instant ramen.
    - wasabi991011 9mo ago
      Wikipedia: > In 2018, Canada was the world's largest producer of rapeseed (20.3 million tonnes), dry pea (3.5 million tonnes) and lentil (2 million tons), the 2nd largest producer of oats in the world (3.4 million tons), the 6th largest world producer of wheat (31.7 million tons) and barley (8.3 million tons), the 7th largest world producer of soy (7.2 million tons), the 10th largest world producer of maize (13.8 million tons) and the 12th largest world producer of potato (5.7 million tonnes). If you consider Canada's small population, this makes Canadian rapeseed a majority of global rapeseed trade, and similarly for oats.

SecretDreams 9mo ago

> Hopefully the American electorate is paying attention. *Hopefully*

827a 9mo ago

Important to remember that the entire Mercosur block has a lower GDP than just California, and around the same GDP as Texas and New York, separately.

_DeadFred_ 9mo ago
But now it will be much easier for the Mercosur block to finance the infrastructure needed to become agricultural export powerhouses. Death by a thousand cuts for the USA is just as bad a one fatal blow.
- 827a 9mo ago
  I don't feel that an "agricultural export powerhouse" is all that desirable a title to own on the global stage, but yes; it is within reach for the Mercosur block. Possibly the only thing within their reach at this point. Agriculture represents ~3% of all US exports, and ~7% of that ~3% flows to the EU; a very small cut indeed.
  - _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
    Sound like some political spin on your part, or just head in the sand. It's how trade starts, small friction reductions. And now that trade is happening anyways, and there are newer better ports, it becomes easier to do more trade. And trade grows. With better new trade routes/infrastructure they aren't just selling the Europe, they are taking more and more market around the world. For the USA that 'tiny' to you 3% is going to wreck a lot of red, agricultural states economies. And they then become drags on other parts of the American economy, and instead of chasing opportunities we're propping things up. Less trade impacts all trade, because suddenly things get tighter for Mississippi shipping. Train lines. There's less synergy, more expense carried by the remaining industry. Less money for maintenance/reinvestment in bulk transportation. Less money going into John Deere and all those agg adjacent companies. Less money for our petrochemical companies (fertilizer) means less reinvestment for them/worse health, higher risk from foreign competition. For example 60% of farm exports travel over rivers, and 20% of coal. So coal shipping prices might get impacted. Maybe coal shipping efficiency as river shipping lanes lose 60% of their business there is less put back into maintaining them. Coal isn't in a position to absorb much shock, it's doing really bad already. Chemicals are 9% of US exports. More ag trade makes it profitable for companies in these other countries to start setting up their own petrochemical factories/industries that will then compete with us as well. Edit: You missed my entire point. But yes, the US is winning by shrinking our export market and needlessly building up competitors. Everyone envies shrinking markets. You got me.