7 ms·

Exactly, was it a burglary when your front door is open, lights on, spotlights on your wall safe, with the keys still inserted? The CEO should be in prison.

bryanrasmussen 9mo ago
>Exactly, was it a burglary when your front door is open Legally speaking, yes in every place I've ever lived if all those things are the case it's still a burglary, although the cops may call the victim an idiot.
- quietbritishjim 9mo ago
  In the UK, there is no crime "burglary". "Breaking and entering" it's a criminal offence, and walking through an unlocked front door back door doesn't count. If you are on someone's land but didn't have to break in then that's trespass, which is just a civil offense. Theft is a crime in any case (indeed even if you're not on their land e.g. snatching a phone off the street).
  - wulfstan 9mo ago
    That is false. Burglary is a crime in the UK. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 and https://www.cps.gov.uk/prosecution-guidance/theft-act-offences https://www.cps.gov.uk/prosecution-guidance/theft-act-offenc...
  - bryanrasmussen 9mo ago
    OK, I probably should specify closer, but while the other commenter has noted there is "burglary" in the UK, I was using burglary in the vernacular, meaning you entered someone's house without their knowledge and stole some shit. I was perhaps unclear with this and in fact in some places what entering someone's house that is not locked and stealing some shit may be a different crime than when it is locked both variations are still generally described, in common usage, as a burglary and are both illegal according to every legal code of every place I've lived, which I've lived in a lot of Western Civ type places.
    - 9JollyOtter 9mo ago
      The comment you are replying to has no idea what they are talking about. Burglary is defined in the Theft Act 1968: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 The door can be wide open. The important parts are you are trespassing with the intent to commit a crime.
      - reactordev 9mo ago
        Literally invented the term ”cat burglar” lol! Commenter above is British too so it’s hilarious he thinks burglary isn’t a thing.
        9JollyOtter 9mo ago
        I am English. It took me all of like 30 seconds to look up the relevant law using Google. Most of Anglosphere has a definition of Burglary that is essentially the same and I suspect it is the same in Europe.
        reactordev 9mo ago
        Yeah I was referring to higher up the stack. You’re spot on for citing the U.K. law.
  - 9JollyOtter 9mo ago
    > In the UK, there is no crime "burglary". Yes there is: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.college.police.uk/guidance/residential-burglary/definitions https://www.college.police.uk/guidance/residential-burglary/... > "Breaking and entering" it's a criminal offence, and walking through an unlocked front door back door doesn't count. No breaking and entering is known as burglary. Also if you walk through the front door with the intent to commit a crime it is still burglary. The important part is trespassing with the intent to commit a crime.
    - quietbritishjim 9mo ago
      Well, I was wrong, sorry for claiming assertively when clearly I didn't know what I was talking about. Thanks for the correction.
- expedition32 9mo ago
  Also the insurance company doesn't pay out if they can prove you did not lock the doors.
prhn 9mo ago
Technically, yes it is still burglary. It's an odd position to take, that a crime was not committed or the offense isn't as bad if the difficulties of committing the crime have been removed or reduced.
- reactordev 9mo ago
  Now, how do we apply that to today’s current events? Is it still a crime if the roadblocks to commit the crime are removed? Even applauded by some? What happens when the chief of police is telling you to go out and commit said crimes? Law and order is dictated by the ruling party. What was a crime yesterday may not be a crime today. So if all you did was turn a key and now you’re a burglar going to prison, when the CEO of the house spent months setting up the perfect crime scene, shouldn’t the CEO at least get an accomplice charge? Insurance fraud starts the same way…
- djohnston 9mo ago
  It's a common attitude with people from low-trust societies. "I'm not a scammer - I'm clever. If you don't want us to scam your system why do you make it so easy?"
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    Welcome to America
    - djohnston 9mo ago
      Powerful.
  - kyboren 9mo ago
    The Internet is the ultimate low-trust society. Your virtual doorstep is right next to ~8 billion other peoples' doorsteps. And attributing attacks and enforcing consequences is extremely difficult and rather unusual. When people from high-trust societies move to a low-trust society, they either adapt to their new environment and take an appropriately defensive posture or they will get robbed, scammed, etc. Those naïfs from high-trust societies may not be morally at fault, but they must be blamed, because they aren't just putting themselves at risk. They must make at least reasonable efforts to secure the data in their custody. It's been like this for decades. It's time to let go of our attachment to heaping all the culpability on attackers. Entities holding user data in custody must take the blame when they don't adequately secure that data, because that incentivizes an improved security posture. And an improved security posture is the only credible path to a future with fewer and smaller data breaches. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25574200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25574200
rzmmm 9mo ago
Someone presented a hypothetical scenario: What if a hacker would write a virus, which breached a totally unprotected database after the hacker has passed away. It's clear that the therapy provider is at least partially responsible.
- reactordev 9mo ago
  Posthumous crime is the ultimate because the legal system is all about punishing the living until they are dead.
  - divan 9mo ago
    In a retributive just culture, yes. https://www.patientsafety.com/en/blog/human-error-retributive-culture-vs-just-culture https://www.patientsafety.com/en/blog/human-error-retributiv...
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      If only human beings were good at learning from past mistakes. It requires multiple tries before we realize, fire bad, unless good, if controlled.
lifetimerubyist 9mo ago
Yes it absolutely is still a burglary. Classic victim blaming.
- reactordev 9mo ago
  Who’s the victim? The CEO? I think the patients are the victims here.
  - lifetimerubyist 9mo ago
    I'm not well versed in Finnish law - but in the USA simply the act of accessing a computer without authorization, even if it not secured, can be a crime under the CFAA. So the company is still a victim, and obviously the patients as well, even if they are incompetent. For the same reason that a person that gets burgled because they left their door unlocked when they left the house is still a victim.
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      But if you attest that your computer system is not accessible by any passersby in order to pass compliance, is that not also a crime? If it is indeed accessible to just anyone? HIPAA law violations and all that I’m not arguing the person who stole didn’t commit a crime - just a lesser one than actually breaking in, cracking a safe, and making off with the jewels. I think the CEO and executive staff are culpable.
NoboruWataya 9mo ago
Is it still assault if the guy is just standing there, within punching distance, without even wearing a helmet?
- reactordev 9mo ago
  Does he have a flag?
9JollyOtter 9mo ago
Yes. Similarly, If I leave my car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, and someone takes it is still a crime. It might be unwise to do that (depending on where you are), but nonetheless it is still crime.
pxc 9mo ago
> The CEO should be in prison. Yes. > Exactly, was it a burglary when your front door is open, lights on, spotlights on your wall safe, with the keys still inserted? The thing isn't just the discovery of the "open door", though. Thousands of people were extorted in a pretty heinous way. Even if we say breaking in took little sophistication or effort, what was done with the data also matters.

bryanrasmussen 9mo ago

>Exactly, was it a burglary when your front door is open Legally speaking, yes in every place I've ever lived if all those things are the case it's still a burglary, although the cops may call the victim an idiot.

quietbritishjim 9mo ago
In the UK, there is no crime "burglary". "Breaking and entering" it's a criminal offence, and walking through an unlocked front door back door doesn't count. If you are on someone's land but didn't have to break in then that's trespass, which is just a civil offense. Theft is a crime in any case (indeed even if you're not on their land e.g. snatching a phone off the street).
- wulfstan 9mo ago
  That is false. Burglary is a crime in the UK. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 and https://www.cps.gov.uk/prosecution-guidance/theft-act-offences https://www.cps.gov.uk/prosecution-guidance/theft-act-offenc...
- bryanrasmussen 9mo ago
  OK, I probably should specify closer, but while the other commenter has noted there is "burglary" in the UK, I was using burglary in the vernacular, meaning you entered someone's house without their knowledge and stole some shit. I was perhaps unclear with this and in fact in some places what entering someone's house that is not locked and stealing some shit may be a different crime than when it is locked both variations are still generally described, in common usage, as a burglary and are both illegal according to every legal code of every place I've lived, which I've lived in a lot of Western Civ type places.
  - 9JollyOtter 9mo ago
    The comment you are replying to has no idea what they are talking about. Burglary is defined in the Theft Act 1968: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 The door can be wide open. The important parts are you are trespassing with the intent to commit a crime.
    - reactordev 9mo ago
      Literally invented the term ”cat burglar” lol! Commenter above is British too so it’s hilarious he thinks burglary isn’t a thing.
      - 9JollyOtter 9mo ago
        I am English. It took me all of like 30 seconds to look up the relevant law using Google. Most of Anglosphere has a definition of Burglary that is essentially the same and I suspect it is the same in Europe.
        reactordev 9mo ago
        Yeah I was referring to higher up the stack. You’re spot on for citing the U.K. law.
- 9JollyOtter 9mo ago
  > In the UK, there is no crime "burglary". Yes there is: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/9 https://www.college.police.uk/guidance/residential-burglary/definitions https://www.college.police.uk/guidance/residential-burglary/... > "Breaking and entering" it's a criminal offence, and walking through an unlocked front door back door doesn't count. No breaking and entering is known as burglary. Also if you walk through the front door with the intent to commit a crime it is still burglary. The important part is trespassing with the intent to commit a crime.
  - quietbritishjim 9mo ago
    Well, I was wrong, sorry for claiming assertively when clearly I didn't know what I was talking about. Thanks for the correction.
expedition32 9mo ago
Also the insurance company doesn't pay out if they can prove you did not lock the doors.

prhn 9mo ago

Technically, yes it is still burglary. It's an odd position to take, that a crime was not committed or the offense isn't as bad if the difficulties of committing the crime have been removed or reduced.

reactordev 9mo ago
Now, how do we apply that to today’s current events? Is it still a crime if the roadblocks to commit the crime are removed? Even applauded by some? What happens when the chief of police is telling you to go out and commit said crimes? Law and order is dictated by the ruling party. What was a crime yesterday may not be a crime today. So if all you did was turn a key and now you’re a burglar going to prison, when the CEO of the house spent months setting up the perfect crime scene, shouldn’t the CEO at least get an accomplice charge? Insurance fraud starts the same way…
djohnston 9mo ago
It's a common attitude with people from low-trust societies. "I'm not a scammer - I'm clever. If you don't want us to scam your system why do you make it so easy?"
- reactordev 9mo ago
  Welcome to America
  - djohnston 9mo ago
    Powerful.
- kyboren 9mo ago
  The Internet is the ultimate low-trust society. Your virtual doorstep is right next to ~8 billion other peoples' doorsteps. And attributing attacks and enforcing consequences is extremely difficult and rather unusual. When people from high-trust societies move to a low-trust society, they either adapt to their new environment and take an appropriately defensive posture or they will get robbed, scammed, etc. Those naïfs from high-trust societies may not be morally at fault, but they must be blamed, because they aren't just putting themselves at risk. They must make at least reasonable efforts to secure the data in their custody. It's been like this for decades. It's time to let go of our attachment to heaping all the culpability on attackers. Entities holding user data in custody must take the blame when they don't adequately secure that data, because that incentivizes an improved security posture. And an improved security posture is the only credible path to a future with fewer and smaller data breaches. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25574200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25574200

rzmmm 9mo ago

Someone presented a hypothetical scenario: What if a hacker would write a virus, which breached a totally unprotected database after the hacker has passed away. It's clear that the therapy provider is at least partially responsible.

reactordev 9mo ago
Posthumous crime is the ultimate because the legal system is all about punishing the living until they are dead.
- divan 9mo ago
  In a retributive just culture, yes. https://www.patientsafety.com/en/blog/human-error-retributive-culture-vs-just-culture https://www.patientsafety.com/en/blog/human-error-retributiv...
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    If only human beings were good at learning from past mistakes. It requires multiple tries before we realize, fire bad, unless good, if controlled.

lifetimerubyist 9mo ago

Yes it absolutely is still a burglary. Classic victim blaming.

reactordev 9mo ago
Who’s the victim? The CEO? I think the patients are the victims here.
- lifetimerubyist 9mo ago
  I'm not well versed in Finnish law - but in the USA simply the act of accessing a computer without authorization, even if it not secured, can be a crime under the CFAA. So the company is still a victim, and obviously the patients as well, even if they are incompetent. For the same reason that a person that gets burgled because they left their door unlocked when they left the house is still a victim.
  - reactordev 9mo ago
    But if you attest that your computer system is not accessible by any passersby in order to pass compliance, is that not also a crime? If it is indeed accessible to just anyone? HIPAA law violations and all that I’m not arguing the person who stole didn’t commit a crime - just a lesser one than actually breaking in, cracking a safe, and making off with the jewels. I think the CEO and executive staff are culpable.

NoboruWataya 9mo ago

Is it still assault if the guy is just standing there, within punching distance, without even wearing a helmet?

reactordev 9mo ago
Does he have a flag?

9JollyOtter 9mo ago

Yes. Similarly, If I leave my car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, and someone takes it is still a crime. It might be unwise to do that (depending on where you are), but nonetheless it is still crime.

pxc 9mo ago

> The CEO should be in prison. Yes. > Exactly, was it a burglary when your front door is open, lights on, spotlights on your wall safe, with the keys still inserted? The thing isn't just the discovery of the "open door", though. Thousands of people were extorted in a pretty heinous way. Even if we say breaking in took little sophistication or effort, what was done with the data also matters.