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I've thought about installing solar panels on my roof for years. But when I factor in installation costs, it never makes sense because the local energy rates ar

by glimshe 9mo ago

I've thought about installing solar panels on my roof for years. But when I factor in installation costs, it never makes sense because the local energy rates are pretty reasonable... Also, I live in Southeast, a place with plenty of sun but nowhere near the Southwest. Solar panel prices fell hugely in the past years. Is there anything that could significantly reduce installation costs?

apexalpha 9mo ago
PV is wildly expensive in the US. Apparently you even need a permit from the grid operator for it. Here in NL they come to your house a week after you call and your panels are up and connected in 4 hours or so.
- maxerickson 9mo ago
  Residential is expensive anyway, larger installations are plenty viable. My town in a northern Michigan is installing solar to help stabilize the rates they offer (I pay about 11 cents per kWh).
- briHass 9mo ago
  Labor for anything is expensive in the US. Parts/materials costs in contractor quotes are often padded so they aren't completely overshadowed by the labor portion. In any job where there's specialized knowledge or license restrictions (HVAC) or risk (walking on a roof), the floor for labor rates is usually 2-4x the materials cost. But, the real issue is that almost nobody pays cash upfront for their solar install. Between incentives, loans, and/or predatory PPAs, the prices lose touch with reality. See healthcare, college tuition, housing prices, etc. for similar scenarios where credit or third-parties distort the market.
  - apexalpha 9mo ago
    Over here installation takes 4 hours or so, probably less. How much more expensive can that be? It's probably much more in the planning process and tariffs on Chinese PV.
    - phil21 9mo ago
      You don't really have that many competent solar installers in most locations in the US. I basically gave up trying. I'm sure they exist, but if you don't want some financed/leased/etc. financial-product-as-a-solar-install your options dwindle. It's entirely obvious that most of these places make money off the financial engineering, not the installation part. I'd sign a competent contractor today for my quite marginal installation plans if I could find someone I'd trust to build something decent and to my specification. They also tend to devalue the house as it's more difficult to get insurance, and many potential buyers are used to shitshow level of installs and/or dealing with a more complex close due to the seller needing to pay off loans/leases/etc. A lot of these plays are also companies setting up complex financial engineering schemes that boil down to government subsidy arbitrage.
      - briHass 9mo ago
        Solar doesn't make sense for me financially (yet), due to location and PoCo rates, but I'd be tempted to be my own contractor and sub out the tasks. Any roofer could do the panel install, and would do a far better job than a solar hack that had 3 days of training. Electrical would be an electrician.
roland35 9mo ago
Yeah solar viability is highly dependent on your local conditions and electricity costs. Also on your utility’s buyback program. I have low electricity costs, no time of use pricing, and I don’t think I can sell back. I also live in a very cloudy city. So solar doesn’t make much sense!
raddan 9mo ago
It is definitely true that the labor cost of a solar installation is the largest driver of cost. In my area, there are solar incentives to offset this. For example I was able to cover a large portion of the loan with a 0% interest rate through a state program. For the remaining portion my bank had a low(er) interest loan (like 5%) specifically for solar. And neither of these loans were home equity loans which psychologically made me happier to apply for them. Another thing, if you have the space, is to consider a ground mount. Ground mount hardware adds a little cost, but it is a lot easier for a solar installer to set up, so they finish faster. Since labor is the biggest driver of cost, then it makes sense to build a very big array that doesn’t just offset your operating costs but completely eliminates it (well, net-eliminates it anyway).
deepsquirrelnet 9mo ago
Where I live in the west, the time to break even was projected at 7.5y for panels rated that run at 85% for 25y and expected lifetime of 30y. I think the main consideration where I live is whether you can make the investment and if you plan on staying in your house long enough to realize the benefit. Also nearly all of the power I offset is from coal.
testing22321 9mo ago
I’m in Canada, in a tight valley with tons of snow. The panels on my roof make $1000 a year, and over their lifetime I’ll save around $20,000. Complete no brainer.

by glimshe 9mo ago

apexalpha 9mo ago

PV is wildly expensive in the US. Apparently you even need a permit from the grid operator for it. Here in NL they come to your house a week after you call and your panels are up and connected in 4 hours or so.

maxerickson 9mo ago
Residential is expensive anyway, larger installations are plenty viable. My town in a northern Michigan is installing solar to help stabilize the rates they offer (I pay about 11 cents per kWh).
briHass 9mo ago
Labor for anything is expensive in the US. Parts/materials costs in contractor quotes are often padded so they aren't completely overshadowed by the labor portion. In any job where there's specialized knowledge or license restrictions (HVAC) or risk (walking on a roof), the floor for labor rates is usually 2-4x the materials cost. But, the real issue is that almost nobody pays cash upfront for their solar install. Between incentives, loans, and/or predatory PPAs, the prices lose touch with reality. See healthcare, college tuition, housing prices, etc. for similar scenarios where credit or third-parties distort the market.
- apexalpha 9mo ago
  Over here installation takes 4 hours or so, probably less. How much more expensive can that be? It's probably much more in the planning process and tariffs on Chinese PV.
  - phil21 9mo ago
    You don't really have that many competent solar installers in most locations in the US. I basically gave up trying. I'm sure they exist, but if you don't want some financed/leased/etc. financial-product-as-a-solar-install your options dwindle. It's entirely obvious that most of these places make money off the financial engineering, not the installation part. I'd sign a competent contractor today for my quite marginal installation plans if I could find someone I'd trust to build something decent and to my specification. They also tend to devalue the house as it's more difficult to get insurance, and many potential buyers are used to shitshow level of installs and/or dealing with a more complex close due to the seller needing to pay off loans/leases/etc. A lot of these plays are also companies setting up complex financial engineering schemes that boil down to government subsidy arbitrage.
    - briHass 9mo ago
      Solar doesn't make sense for me financially (yet), due to location and PoCo rates, but I'd be tempted to be my own contractor and sub out the tasks. Any roofer could do the panel install, and would do a far better job than a solar hack that had 3 days of training. Electrical would be an electrician.

roland35 9mo ago

Yeah solar viability is highly dependent on your local conditions and electricity costs. Also on your utility’s buyback program. I have low electricity costs, no time of use pricing, and I don’t think I can sell back. I also live in a very cloudy city. So solar doesn’t make much sense!

raddan 9mo ago

It is definitely true that the labor cost of a solar installation is the largest driver of cost. In my area, there are solar incentives to offset this. For example I was able to cover a large portion of the loan with a 0% interest rate through a state program. For the remaining portion my bank had a low(er) interest loan (like 5%) specifically for solar. And neither of these loans were home equity loans which psychologically made me happier to apply for them. Another thing, if you have the space, is to consider a ground mount. Ground mount hardware adds a little cost, but it is a lot easier for a solar installer to set up, so they finish faster. Since labor is the biggest driver of cost, then it makes sense to build a very big array that doesn’t just offset your operating costs but completely eliminates it (well, net-eliminates it anyway).

deepsquirrelnet 9mo ago

Where I live in the west, the time to break even was projected at 7.5y for panels rated that run at 85% for 25y and expected lifetime of 30y. I think the main consideration where I live is whether you can make the investment and if you plan on staying in your house long enough to realize the benefit. Also nearly all of the power I offset is from coal.

testing22321 9mo ago

I’m in Canada, in a tight valley with tons of snow. The panels on my roof make $1000 a year, and over their lifetime I’ll save around $20,000. Complete no brainer.