5 ms·

What he did with messaging... So he will centralize all of it with known broken SGX metadata protections, weak supply chain integrity, and a mandate everyone su

by lrvick 9mo ago

What he did with messaging... So he will centralize all of it with known broken SGX metadata protections, weak supply chain integrity, and a mandate everyone supply their phone numbers and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it?

fsflover 9mo ago
Not sure why you're gettimg downvoted. This is exactly what he did to instant messaging; extremely damaging to everyone and without solid arguments for such design.
- maqp 9mo ago
  Or, he took a barely niché messaging app plugin (OTR), improved it to provide forward secrecy for non-round trips, and deployed the current state-of-the art end-to-end encryption to over 3,000,000,000 users, as Signal isn't the only tool to use double-ratchet E2EE. >broken SGX metadata protections Citation needed. Also, SGX is just there to try to verify what the server is doing, including that the server isn't collecting metadata. The real talking is done by the responses to warrants https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ where they've been able to hand over only two timestamps of when the user created their account and when they were last seen. If that's not good enough for you, you're better off using Tor-p2p messengers that don't have servers collecting your metadata at all, such as Cwtch or Quiet. >weak supply chain integrity You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. >a mandate everyone supply their phone numbers That's how you combat spam. It sucks but there are very few options outside the corner of Zooko's triangle that has your username look like "4sci35xrhp2d45gbm3qpta7ogfedonuw2mucmc36jxemucd7fmgzj3ad". >and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses.
  - josephg 9mo ago
    > You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. I wish apple & google provided a way to verify that an app was actually compiled from some specific git SHA. Right now applications can claim they're opensource, and claim that you can read the source code yourself. But there's no way to check that the authors haven't added any extra nasties into the code before building and submitting the APK / ios application bundle. It would be pretty easy to do. Just have a build process at apple / google which you can point to a git repo, and let them build the application. Or - even easier - just have a way to see the application's signature in the app store. Then opensource app developers could compile their APK / ios app using github actions. And 3rd parties could check the SHA matches the app binaries in the store.
    - rcxdude 9mo ago
      This is what F-droid does (well, I suspect most apps don't have reproducable builds that would allow 3rd-party verification), but Signal does not want 3rd-party builds of their client anyhow.
      - actionfromafar 9mo ago
        They could still figure out a way to attest their builds against source.
        fsflover 9mo ago
        This is much harder when Signal actively goes against that.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - Maken 9mo ago
    >over 3,000,000,000 users Is that a typo or are you really implying half the human population use Signal? Edit: I misread, you are counting almost every messaging app user.
    - rcxdude 9mo ago
      Yeah, whatsapp uses the same protocol.
      - lrvick 9mo ago
        Well, we do not really have any idea what Whatsapp uses, because it is proprietary.
    - maqp 9mo ago
      Just WhatsApp. Moxie's ideas are used in plenty of other messengers. The context was "what Moxie did for the field of instant messaging".
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - stavros 9mo ago
    Exactly. These arguments are so weak that they read more like a smear campaign than an actual technical discussion. "You have to agree to Apple's terms to use it"? What's Signal meant to do, jailbreak your phone before installing itself on it?
    - kelipso 9mo ago
      Moxie Marlinspike sounds like some 90s intelligence guy’s understanding of what an appealing name to hacker groups would sound like. Put a guy like that as so-called creator of some encryption protocol for messaging and promote the app like it’s for secret conversations and you think people won’t be suspicious? It screams honeypot like nothing else.
      - stavros 9mo ago
        So the argument against Signal is now "the creator's nickname sounds odd"? I mean, OK? Keep using WhatsApp, Telegram or Instagram if you think those are more private than Signal.
        kelipso 9mo ago
        Does anyone actually think that’s his real name?
        stavros 9mo ago
        I'm sure some people who don't realise it's a pseudonym do? Sounds like you're one of them.
        kelipso 9mo ago
        Lol, why are you so mad? My while point is that he doesn’t reveal his actual name.
        stavros 9mo ago
  - fsflover 9mo ago
    >> and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? > Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses. No, that's what happens when you actively forbid alternative clients and servers, prevent (secure) alternative methods of delivery for your app and force people to rely on the American megacorps known for helping governmental spying on users, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810
  - sudahtigabulan 9mo ago
    >>broken SGX metadata protections >Citation needed. https://sgx.fail https://sgx.fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List_of_SGX_vulnerabilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List...
pousada 9mo ago
Do you know a better alternative that I can get my elderly parents and non-technical friends to use? I haven’t come across one and from my amateur POV it seems much better than WhatsApp or Telegram.
- lrvick 9mo ago
  Matrix.
- yunaflox 9mo ago
  XMPP, as Matrix is pretty much centralized, unless you're fortunate enough to register outside of matrix.org. Both xmpp.org and jabber.org is no longer open for registration.
  - Arathorn 9mo ago
    only around 35% of the publicly visible matrix accounts are on matrix.org…
    - nixosbestos 9mo ago
      remember when you agreed with me that it was maybe regretable that the Favorites space was removed in favor of a process that required multiple clicks? and now it's months later and Element still has this redesign shipped, with every single one of the original flaws mentioned, still present. I think Matrix has a lot of smart people involved, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but dear god, are you hiring for a TPM, by chance? Every, single, time I have to go "Home" -> "Expand" -> "Favorites" to do what used to take one click, I lose a bit more faith in Element/Matrix. Though, y'all did finally fix the notification sound that made me want to kill myself every single time it violated my ear drums. Only took.... 4 years? for that?
      - Arathorn 9mo ago
        What were meant to be fast-follow fixes to the new left panel after it shipped in September ended up getting starved out by deadlines for paying customers, frustratingly. The work is happening now however.
rcxdude 9mo ago
The issue being there's not really a credible better option. Matrix is the next best, because they do avoid the tie-in to phone numbers and such, but their cryptographic design is not so great (or rather, makes more tradeoffs for usability and decentralisation), and it's a lot buggier and harder to use.
- lrvick 9mo ago
  Full time matrix user and all my family and businesses use Matrix too. It works just fine, and with self hosting, I control the metadata on the servers I host for my orgs. It actually is the least bad option available, and decentralization is always worth it even if development is slower and more complex as a consequence.
1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo ago
By default, the mobile app continually tries to connect to "updates2.signal.org" Perhaps manual, user-controlled updates is not part of the design If the source code is available^1 then surely someone has modified it to remove the phone number requirement, not to mention other improvements 1. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server It seems like Signal may be another example of "read-only" open source, where there is no expectation anyone will actually try to _use_ the source code. Instead, there is an expectation that everyone will use binaries distributed by a third party and allow remote code installation and RCE of software on their computers _at the third party's discretion_. In other words, all users will cede control to a third party NB. This comment is not referring to the "Signal protocol". It pertains to _control_ over the software that implements it

by lrvick 9mo ago

fsflover 9mo ago

Not sure why you're gettimg downvoted. This is exactly what he did to instant messaging; extremely damaging to everyone and without solid arguments for such design.

maqp 9mo ago
Or, he took a barely niché messaging app plugin (OTR), improved it to provide forward secrecy for non-round trips, and deployed the current state-of-the art end-to-end encryption to over 3,000,000,000 users, as Signal isn't the only tool to use double-ratchet E2EE. >broken SGX metadata protections Citation needed. Also, SGX is just there to try to verify what the server is doing, including that the server isn't collecting metadata. The real talking is done by the responses to warrants https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/ where they've been able to hand over only two timestamps of when the user created their account and when they were last seen. If that's not good enough for you, you're better off using Tor-p2p messengers that don't have servers collecting your metadata at all, such as Cwtch or Quiet. >weak supply chain integrity You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. >a mandate everyone supply their phone numbers That's how you combat spam. It sucks but there are very few options outside the corner of Zooko's triangle that has your username look like "4sci35xrhp2d45gbm3qpta7ogfedonuw2mucmc36jxemucd7fmgzj3ad". >and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses.
- josephg 9mo ago
  > You can download the app as an .apk from their website if you don't trust Google Play Store. I wish apple & google provided a way to verify that an app was actually compiled from some specific git SHA. Right now applications can claim they're opensource, and claim that you can read the source code yourself. But there's no way to check that the authors haven't added any extra nasties into the code before building and submitting the APK / ios application bundle. It would be pretty easy to do. Just have a build process at apple / google which you can point to a git repo, and let them build the application. Or - even easier - just have a way to see the application's signature in the app store. Then opensource app developers could compile their APK / ios app using github actions. And 3rd parties could check the SHA matches the app binaries in the store.
  - rcxdude 9mo ago
    This is what F-droid does (well, I suspect most apps don't have reproducable builds that would allow 3rd-party verification), but Signal does not want 3rd-party builds of their client anyhow.
    - actionfromafar 9mo ago
      They could still figure out a way to attest their builds against source.
      - fsflover 9mo ago
        This is much harder when Signal actively goes against that.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- Maken 9mo ago
  >over 3,000,000,000 users Is that a typo or are you really implying half the human population use Signal? Edit: I misread, you are counting almost every messaging app user.
  - rcxdude 9mo ago
    Yeah, whatsapp uses the same protocol.
    - lrvick 9mo ago
      Well, we do not really have any idea what Whatsapp uses, because it is proprietary.
  - maqp 9mo ago
    Just WhatsApp. Moxie's ideas are used in plenty of other messengers. The context was "what Moxie did for the field of instant messaging".
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- stavros 9mo ago
  Exactly. These arguments are so weak that they read more like a smear campaign than an actual technical discussion. "You have to agree to Apple's terms to use it"? What's Signal meant to do, jailbreak your phone before installing itself on it?
  - kelipso 9mo ago
    Moxie Marlinspike sounds like some 90s intelligence guy’s understanding of what an appealing name to hacker groups would sound like. Put a guy like that as so-called creator of some encryption protocol for messaging and promote the app like it’s for secret conversations and you think people won’t be suspicious? It screams honeypot like nothing else.
    - stavros 9mo ago
      So the argument against Signal is now "the creator's nickname sounds odd"? I mean, OK? Keep using WhatsApp, Telegram or Instagram if you think those are more private than Signal.
      - kelipso 9mo ago
        Does anyone actually think that’s his real name?
        stavros 9mo ago
        I'm sure some people who don't realise it's a pseudonym do? Sounds like you're one of them.
        kelipso 9mo ago
        Lol, why are you so mad? My while point is that he doesn’t reveal his actual name.
        stavros 9mo ago
- fsflover 9mo ago
  >> and agree to Apple or Google terms of service to use it? > Yeah that's what happens when you create a phone app for the masses. No, that's what happens when you actively forbid alternative clients and servers, prevent (secure) alternative methods of delivery for your app and force people to rely on the American megacorps known for helping governmental spying on users, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38555810
- sudahtigabulan 9mo ago
  >>broken SGX metadata protections >Citation needed. https://sgx.fail https://sgx.fail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List_of_SGX_vulnerabilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Guard_Extensions#List...

pousada 9mo ago

Do you know a better alternative that I can get my elderly parents and non-technical friends to use? I haven’t come across one and from my amateur POV it seems much better than WhatsApp or Telegram.

lrvick 9mo ago
Matrix.
yunaflox 9mo ago
XMPP, as Matrix is pretty much centralized, unless you're fortunate enough to register outside of matrix.org. Both xmpp.org and jabber.org is no longer open for registration.
- Arathorn 9mo ago
  only around 35% of the publicly visible matrix accounts are on matrix.org…
  - nixosbestos 9mo ago
    remember when you agreed with me that it was maybe regretable that the Favorites space was removed in favor of a process that required multiple clicks? and now it's months later and Element still has this redesign shipped, with every single one of the original flaws mentioned, still present. I think Matrix has a lot of smart people involved, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but dear god, are you hiring for a TPM, by chance? Every, single, time I have to go "Home" -> "Expand" -> "Favorites" to do what used to take one click, I lose a bit more faith in Element/Matrix. Though, y'all did finally fix the notification sound that made me want to kill myself every single time it violated my ear drums. Only took.... 4 years? for that?
    - Arathorn 9mo ago
      What were meant to be fast-follow fixes to the new left panel after it shipped in September ended up getting starved out by deadlines for paying customers, frustratingly. The work is happening now however.

rcxdude 9mo ago

The issue being there's not really a credible better option. Matrix is the next best, because they do avoid the tie-in to phone numbers and such, but their cryptographic design is not so great (or rather, makes more tradeoffs for usability and decentralisation), and it's a lot buggier and harder to use.

lrvick 9mo ago
Full time matrix user and all my family and businesses use Matrix too. It works just fine, and with self hosting, I control the metadata on the servers I host for my orgs. It actually is the least bad option available, and decentralization is always worth it even if development is slower and more complex as a consequence.

1vuio0pswjnm7 9mo ago

By default, the mobile app continually tries to connect to "updates2.signal.org" Perhaps manual, user-controlled updates is not part of the design If the source code is available^1 then surely someone has modified it to remove the phone number requirement, not to mention other improvements 1. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server It seems like Signal may be another example of "read-only" open source, where there is no expectation anyone will actually try to _use_ the source code. Instead, there is an expectation that everyone will use binaries distributed by a third party and allow remote code installation and RCE of software on their computers _at the third party's discretion_. In other words, all users will cede control to a third party NB. This comment is not referring to the "Signal protocol". It pertains to _control_ over the software that implements it