4 ms·

Well i am not against immigration or foreigners. Even a dumbest racist must understand that with TFR being <2.0, a country must have immigration or it will even

Well i am not against immigration or foreigners. Even a dumbest racist must understand that with TFR being <2.0, a country must have immigration or it will eventually collapse. There's no denying that immigration is necessary, both in US and EU (i live in EU). I am against people who insist that the country should not have the ability to pick who gets in and who doesn't. And that's what illegal immigration is. Here in EU, we don't really have illegal immigration as a large problem. There are some but they are really few in numbers (about 0.8% of population according to the most recent estimates vs ~4% in the USA) and no political force in any of EU countries, even the most leftist ones, claims that they are OK and not a problem. They exist because it's technically difficult to solve them (country of origin is often unknowable, they burned their passports and won't tell where they came from, so there's nowhere to deport them). But EVERY political force accepts that they are a problem, no one OKs their existence. It's hard to understand why in the US many people see it as norm. Just have a legal immigration system that works.

baubino 9mo ago
> It's hard to understand why in the US many people see it as norm. Immigration is the norm in the U.S. because the country’s entire history is built on immigration, unlike the EU. I don’t know that undocumented immigration is the norm though. If you look at the history of any major city in the US, it is a history of demographic shifts based on immigration. That immigration had largely been from Europe since the 17th century (along with the forced migration of enslaved Africans). Only since the 1960s has there been large scale immigration from non-European nations. Over that history, each generation of assimilated Americans has looked down on newer immigrants and sought to limit or prevent their ability to remain and become citizens. The English settlers of the 1600s enslaved forced African migrants and they looked down on the German and Dutch immigrants who followed them. The English/German/Dutch who after a generation or two begin to think of themselves as American looked down on the immigrants from Scandinavia who began to settle the American midwest in the early 1800s. The nascent Americans fought numerous wars and skirmishes with Mexico until a new border meant that vast territory that was once Mexico was now the US and Mexicans were now foreigners in the US. Chinese workers were imported to the west coast as essentially indentured labor to built the railroads in the 1800s. The Spanish American War led to immigration from Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines. The assimilated Americans of the 1800s vehemently opposed the mass immigration of Irish people in the mid 1800s and the assimilated Irish in turn vehemently opposed the mass immigration of Italians in the late 1800s. Both groups worked to stop immigration from Poland in the 1920s, and it was then that the US enacted its first immigration restrictions. Those restrictions were relaxed in the late 1960s, which led to large migrations from South America, the Caribbean, and India. Immigration is the norm for the entirety of the US’s history. Also the norm (unfortunately) is each assimilated group wanting to prevent others who arrive after them from having the same opportunities that they did.
- anovikov 9mo ago
  I wonder if it's even written in good faith. It's clear from my post that i meant illegal immigration only.
  - baubino 9mo ago
    See my first paragraph where I state that I don’t think that undocumented immigration is considered a norm in the US.
ben_w 9mo ago
> It's hard to understand why in the US many people see it as norm. Just have a legal immigration system that works. Historically there's all kinds of things going on, but the industrial revolution massively increased travel and softened national borders almost worldwide right up until around WW1. This time period coincides with the US becoming a global power. In the modern time, there's two more reasons, both cynical: 1. It lets them have an underclass such that they can away with lower pay and lower rights, which conversely also allows all the native-born to earn more than they otherwise would have because someone has to do these jobs that have yet to be automated. 2. while also demonising that group for bonus points in elections. Everything breaks hard the moment anyone with power mistakes the kayfabe (demonising the vitally important underclass) for reality. Letting yourself be one whom politicians can score points out of, encourages the election of politicians more likely to make that mistake. The people anyone really needs to worry about? They've got official passports and visas and naturalisation (in the US's case, Musk) or are native born citizens (Trump), and yet are working against the national interests, and in some cases even directly for foreign governments (e.g. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/active-duty-soldier-arrested-and-charged-espionage-and-export-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/active-duty-soldier-arrested-...).

baubino 9mo ago

> It's hard to understand why in the US many people see it as norm. Immigration is the norm in the U.S. because the country’s entire history is built on immigration, unlike the EU. I don’t know that undocumented immigration is the norm though. If you look at the history of any major city in the US, it is a history of demographic shifts based on immigration. That immigration had largely been from Europe since the 17th century (along with the forced migration of enslaved Africans). Only since the 1960s has there been large scale immigration from non-European nations. Over that history, each generation of assimilated Americans has looked down on newer immigrants and sought to limit or prevent their ability to remain and become citizens. The English settlers of the 1600s enslaved forced African migrants and they looked down on the German and Dutch immigrants who followed them. The English/German/Dutch who after a generation or two begin to think of themselves as American looked down on the immigrants from Scandinavia who began to settle the American midwest in the early 1800s. The nascent Americans fought numerous wars and skirmishes with Mexico until a new border meant that vast territory that was once Mexico was now the US and Mexicans were now foreigners in the US. Chinese workers were imported to the west coast as essentially indentured labor to built the railroads in the 1800s. The Spanish American War led to immigration from Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines. The assimilated Americans of the 1800s vehemently opposed the mass immigration of Irish people in the mid 1800s and the assimilated Irish in turn vehemently opposed the mass immigration of Italians in the late 1800s. Both groups worked to stop immigration from Poland in the 1920s, and it was then that the US enacted its first immigration restrictions. Those restrictions were relaxed in the late 1960s, which led to large migrations from South America, the Caribbean, and India. Immigration is the norm for the entirety of the US’s history. Also the norm (unfortunately) is each assimilated group wanting to prevent others who arrive after them from having the same opportunities that they did.

anovikov 9mo ago
I wonder if it's even written in good faith. It's clear from my post that i meant illegal immigration only.
- baubino 9mo ago
  See my first paragraph where I state that I don’t think that undocumented immigration is considered a norm in the US.

ben_w 9mo ago

> It's hard to understand why in the US many people see it as norm. Just have a legal immigration system that works. Historically there's all kinds of things going on, but the industrial revolution massively increased travel and softened national borders almost worldwide right up until around WW1. This time period coincides with the US becoming a global power. In the modern time, there's two more reasons, both cynical: 1. It lets them have an underclass such that they can away with lower pay and lower rights, which conversely also allows all the native-born to earn more than they otherwise would have because someone has to do these jobs that have yet to be automated. 2. while also demonising that group for bonus points in elections. Everything breaks hard the moment anyone with power mistakes the kayfabe (demonising the vitally important underclass) for reality. Letting yourself be one whom politicians can score points out of, encourages the election of politicians more likely to make that mistake. The people anyone really needs to worry about? They've got official passports and visas and naturalisation (in the US's case, Musk) or are native born citizens (Trump), and yet are working against the national interests, and in some cases even directly for foreign governments (e.g. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/active-duty-soldier-arrested-and-charged-espionage-and-export-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/active-duty-soldier-arrested-...).