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My take away from this link is not what Adafruit probably wants. > we told sparkfun they needed to get their house in order > that was the big issue i wanted

by Alupis 9mo ago

My take away from this link is not what Adafruit probably wants. > we told sparkfun they needed to get their house in order > that was the big issue i wanted them to get some hr training on, or _something_ You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. There's more professional ways of dealing with a situation like this. Request a meeting. Send a calm, collected, professional email to a decision-maker and be sure it's well sourced and factual. Keep things in private. If the other party decides not to take action, then make a decision if you want to continue doing business with them. Do not keep pressuring them for the outcome you want, do not escalate the situation, and certainly don't drag the dirty laundry out into the public. Like, what good did Adafruit actually think was going to come from getting into a fight with the founder of Sparkfun? 50 lashings with a wet noodle? Whatever Sparkfun allegedly did to cause this, Adafruit looks pretty poor in this light. I've been a long time customer of both Adafruit and Sparkfun, and will continue to be - but this is some rookie, amateur, hot-headed behavior from Adafruit.

ptorrone 9mo ago
after a decade of dealing with the founder's bullying, i had enough, looking back almost every year there was something. we did handle things privately until it was clear nothing was going to change, the only real change is we cannot buy teensy, a closed source board sparkfun exclusively makes now, maybe they (sparkfun) will stop paying the payments on something that had to agreed to, and have, we'll see.
- Alupis 9mo ago
  I understand you're pretty upset with the situation, and I can't blame you. But I never should be reading about any of this on public forums. It doesn't reflect well on you or Adafruit. Now an outcome has been chosen for you, without your input. The situation is probably irreconcilable. That's not the position you ever want to be in. Obviously. If the situation was untenable, after your reasonable and private attempts, you should have decided to sever ties on your terms. The outcome would have been the same, but you'd be in control of the situation, and wouldn't be permanently leaving things in public view. I'm sorry for the situation. I'm a real hot head at times, but it's something I've learned (the hard way, over and over again) that I need to control. Business is business... I hope it works out for you and Adafruit.
  - ptorrone 9mo ago
    there was only one product we were purchasing anything in the hundreds of units, the teensy... we had a record sales today, inquires for a new board that is open source, so i think the community and customers have made decisions too.
    - lsiq 9mo ago
      The Teensy is so 2020 anyways. You want to skate where the puck is going. You will want boards of the Kendryte K230 or SpacemitK3 (best value RISC-V chips) or Puya PY32 (best cheapest MCU, takes 5V!), and a STM32P1 linux board for good measure.
  - doctorpangloss 9mo ago
    I completely disagree. Be yourself. And broadly, if you aspire to be in charge, as opposed to a forever IC, be yourself even more! Adafruit makes an aesthetic experience that appeals to a niche audience. It is not an hockey stick growth company. And even those that are: Everybody makes aesthetic experiences. Nobody needs hobbyist microcontrollers. Part of the product is being on the “right side” of Internet dramas.
    - thunderfork 9mo ago
      If part of the product is "being on the right side of Internet drama", that kinda makes me trust them even less. A perverse incentive to get involved in stupid slapfights, escalate, and lie about it...
      - refulgentis 9mo ago
        A private email isn't internet drama: you commenting on a disagreement you are not involved in, on the internet, is internet drama. The person you are commenting on privately communicated, the public link you are reading is the other party.
        9mo ago
refulgentis 9mo ago
I see: when you’re working with another company and someone’s a dick, you can’t mention it and give constructive suggestions on how to fix it, because then the suggestions are transmutated into an order. That means you are telling a company what it has to do to stop the bad thing, which is worse than the bad thing.
- fn-mote 9mo ago
  > it has to do to stop the bad thing, which is worse than the bad thing Imo that “worse than the bad thing” evaluation is highly subjective. Nevertheless, I have to say I agree with the poster who recommends you cut ties on your own terms.
abracadaniel 9mo ago
They seem to have reported it in private and were then banned and publicly accused of Code of Conduct violations in retaliation. Going public with everything would seem to be the reasonable response.
- Moto7451 9mo ago
  Sure, but they did so by going to the Teensy forum, which is not a SparkFun site, and really made a stink. If going public is reasonable, they did it in the least reasonable way.
  - abracadaniel 9mo ago
    That’s not what I’m seeing. They requested comments from the public about the product, only mentioning that the fact that they weren’t allowed to purchase more from Sparkfun [0]. Sparkfun then jumped into the discussion with accusations of a Code of Conduct violation, and only then did they respond publicly. Sparkfun made it public first in that 3rd party forum. [0] https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-compatible-what-features-do-you-want.77584/ https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-...
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chris_wot 9mo ago
You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. There's more professional ways of dealing with a situation like this. Joyent's CEO once said he would have sacked another companies employee.
bccdee 9mo ago
> You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. Depends what they did. Let's check the forum post… > they had created and promoted hate sites, photoshopped images, and harassment targeting limor, me, and others at adafruit. this was done on company time, shared, promoted. Ok yeah if a company is sharing bigoted photoshops of my likeness, yes, I'm gonna demand that they discipline the responsible employees. Obviously. I don't have any reference point for what "hate sites, photoshopped images, and harassment [meriting HR training]" constitute, but if it's anywhere near as bad as it sounds, sure, escalate the situation and air your dirty laundry in public. This is unacceptable behaviour, and apparently it went on for years. When you're being publicly harassed, you have no duty to indefinitely restrain your response to private, polite emails.
- bawolff 9mo ago
  It sounds like the allegations are for things that was be illegal in nature. I think the expected way to handle something like this would be to write the calm factual email. If that goes nowhere then sue them. I don't think the public airing approach is the right one.
  - bccdee 9mo ago
    Suing is way more expensive and way more hostile than simply airing your grievances in public. And why not? That's what public forums are for. "Do nothing" and "sue them" are not your only options; we are part of a society, not merely party to a legal system.
  - rafram 9mo ago
    It’s difficult to prosecute online harassment, and “hate sites and photoshopped images” aren’t illegal. There’s a right to freedom of speech in the US.
    - asdfasvea 9mo ago
      Further the 'hate-' prefix in an accusation makes it one I immediately tune out. It's just a manipulative word that lets you incite people while not actually revealing what was said.

by Alupis 9mo ago

ptorrone 9mo ago

after a decade of dealing with the founder's bullying, i had enough, looking back almost every year there was something. we did handle things privately until it was clear nothing was going to change, the only real change is we cannot buy teensy, a closed source board sparkfun exclusively makes now, maybe they (sparkfun) will stop paying the payments on something that had to agreed to, and have, we'll see.

Alupis 9mo ago
I understand you're pretty upset with the situation, and I can't blame you. But I never should be reading about any of this on public forums. It doesn't reflect well on you or Adafruit. Now an outcome has been chosen for you, without your input. The situation is probably irreconcilable. That's not the position you ever want to be in. Obviously. If the situation was untenable, after your reasonable and private attempts, you should have decided to sever ties on your terms. The outcome would have been the same, but you'd be in control of the situation, and wouldn't be permanently leaving things in public view. I'm sorry for the situation. I'm a real hot head at times, but it's something I've learned (the hard way, over and over again) that I need to control. Business is business... I hope it works out for you and Adafruit.
- ptorrone 9mo ago
  there was only one product we were purchasing anything in the hundreds of units, the teensy... we had a record sales today, inquires for a new board that is open source, so i think the community and customers have made decisions too.
  - lsiq 9mo ago
    The Teensy is so 2020 anyways. You want to skate where the puck is going. You will want boards of the Kendryte K230 or SpacemitK3 (best value RISC-V chips) or Puya PY32 (best cheapest MCU, takes 5V!), and a STM32P1 linux board for good measure.
- doctorpangloss 9mo ago
  I completely disagree. Be yourself. And broadly, if you aspire to be in charge, as opposed to a forever IC, be yourself even more! Adafruit makes an aesthetic experience that appeals to a niche audience. It is not an hockey stick growth company. And even those that are: Everybody makes aesthetic experiences. Nobody needs hobbyist microcontrollers. Part of the product is being on the “right side” of Internet dramas.
  - thunderfork 9mo ago
    If part of the product is "being on the right side of Internet drama", that kinda makes me trust them even less. A perverse incentive to get involved in stupid slapfights, escalate, and lie about it...
    - refulgentis 9mo ago
      A private email isn't internet drama: you commenting on a disagreement you are not involved in, on the internet, is internet drama. The person you are commenting on privately communicated, the public link you are reading is the other party.
      - 9mo ago

refulgentis 9mo ago

I see: when you’re working with another company and someone’s a dick, you can’t mention it and give constructive suggestions on how to fix it, because then the suggestions are transmutated into an order. That means you are telling a company what it has to do to stop the bad thing, which is worse than the bad thing.

fn-mote 9mo ago
> it has to do to stop the bad thing, which is worse than the bad thing Imo that “worse than the bad thing” evaluation is highly subjective. Nevertheless, I have to say I agree with the poster who recommends you cut ties on your own terms.

abracadaniel 9mo ago

They seem to have reported it in private and were then banned and publicly accused of Code of Conduct violations in retaliation. Going public with everything would seem to be the reasonable response.

Moto7451 9mo ago
Sure, but they did so by going to the Teensy forum, which is not a SparkFun site, and really made a stink. If going public is reasonable, they did it in the least reasonable way.
- abracadaniel 9mo ago
  That’s not what I’m seeing. They requested comments from the public about the product, only mentioning that the fact that they weren’t allowed to purchase more from Sparkfun [0]. Sparkfun then jumped into the discussion with accusations of a Code of Conduct violation, and only then did they respond publicly. Sparkfun made it public first in that 3rd party forum. [0] https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-compatible-what-features-do-you-want.77584/ https://forum.pjrc.com/index.php?threads/open-source-teensy-...
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chris_wot 9mo ago

You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. There's more professional ways of dealing with a situation like this. Joyent's CEO once said he would have sacked another companies employee.

bccdee 9mo ago

> You don't tell or demand another company do something with their own employees. Depends what they did. Let's check the forum post… > they had created and promoted hate sites, photoshopped images, and harassment targeting limor, me, and others at adafruit. this was done on company time, shared, promoted. Ok yeah if a company is sharing bigoted photoshops of my likeness, yes, I'm gonna demand that they discipline the responsible employees. Obviously. I don't have any reference point for what "hate sites, photoshopped images, and harassment [meriting HR training]" constitute, but if it's anywhere near as bad as it sounds, sure, escalate the situation and air your dirty laundry in public. This is unacceptable behaviour, and apparently it went on for years. When you're being publicly harassed, you have no duty to indefinitely restrain your response to private, polite emails.

bawolff 9mo ago
It sounds like the allegations are for things that was be illegal in nature. I think the expected way to handle something like this would be to write the calm factual email. If that goes nowhere then sue them. I don't think the public airing approach is the right one.
- bccdee 9mo ago
  Suing is way more expensive and way more hostile than simply airing your grievances in public. And why not? That's what public forums are for. "Do nothing" and "sue them" are not your only options; we are part of a society, not merely party to a legal system.
- rafram 9mo ago
  It’s difficult to prosecute online harassment, and “hate sites and photoshopped images” aren’t illegal. There’s a right to freedom of speech in the US.
  - asdfasvea 9mo ago
    Further the 'hate-' prefix in an accusation makes it one I immediately tune out. It's just a manipulative word that lets you incite people while not actually revealing what was said.