7 ms·

Such articles are interesting because they're tacit disapproval, but I would argue that this use of the O-1 is the most American way to use it. There's a reaso

Such articles are interesting because they're tacit disapproval, but I would argue that this use of the O-1 is the most American way to use it. There's a reason why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2, https://goldenglobes.com/articles/exiles-and-emigres-hollywood-1933-1950/ https://goldenglobes.com/articles/exiles-and-emigres-hollywo... You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ. This is the future of culture. These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification.

darth_avocado 9mo ago
I have no judgement on these models. Everyone can make money through legal means as they deem fit. But at the same time, the immigration system historically penalized anyone who engages in prostitution and actively denied entry to people found to be engaged in it. There is an explicit question about this in all immigration forms. Which is why it’s surprising that O-1 visas are being awarded to OnlyFans models. Maybe OF isn’t prostitution according to how it’s being interpreted, but it’s very surprising.
- mrguyorama 9mo ago
  Why should prostitutes not be allowed to immigrate to the US?
  - darth_avocado 9mo ago
    That is beyond my pay grade. I’m just stating how the immigration system has worked historically.
  - rurban 9mo ago
    Because their abilities are not in the extraordinary artistic abilities category. It's not Hollywood, it's Florida.
- palata 9mo ago
  If OnlyFans is not prostitution (and in my understanding it is not), then I don't see why it is surprising?
- nemomarx 9mo ago
  how would it be interpreted as prostitution? the close analogue is porn stars right
  - gampleman 9mo ago
    Porn comes from pornē, Greek for prostitute. So at least etymologically (and arguably logically as both involve sex for money) porn is prostitution. If that’s accepted, then I find it hard not to also accept OF as a form of prostitution.
    - ghef453 9mo ago
      School comes from skholē, Greek for "leisure" or "spare time.". Therefore people can't be stressed for finals at university, since it's all leisure! “Etymologically, X comes from Y, therefore X is a form of Y” is quite the jump in logic...
  - darth_avocado 9mo ago
    Well Sweden sure thinks it could be a form of prostitution. While Some form of OF is similar to pornography (pre recorded shows) other is similar to prostitution and therefore illegal (paying for custom live sexual acts). Obviously Sweden isn’t US, but it’s not as clear as “OF is just porn”. https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2025-06-10/sweden-parliament-criminalizes-the-purchase-of-online-sexual-acts/ https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2025-06-10/swe...
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- areoform 9mo ago
  Disclaimer: I don't mean this comment as an insult to you or anyone else here. It's meant to be slightly tongue in cheek. I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking. You're misunderstanding what these people - esports athletes, successful streamers, influencers, OF models etc - actually do. They create and maintain parasocial relationships. The point isn't just the gameplay or nudes / sex videos or commentary. For e.g., I (and a bunch of other young women for some reason) love to watch Temet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg while working. It's the way they reflect back to their audience and allow them to become a part of their performance. It's kind of like the place where everyone knows your name? These are digital third places and the content (whether it be neon blue bunny hopping characters or a graphic video of someone having sex) is a mechanism for bonding / a part of the activity. Kind of like the alcohol at the pub, I suppose. That's where real influence comes from in this age. If you think OF is prostitution, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what will drive power and culture in this century.
  - TheOtherHobbes 9mo ago
    There's a strong parasocial element to traditional prostitution, although it's used more by high-end "escorts" who deliberately cultivate conversational skills. So none of this is new. "My default strategy was this: I would invite the man in, we’d sit down and talk for a while. I’d establish physical contact in the conversation by touching his hand when laughing at a joke, or crossing my leg so it bumped into his. I would become increasingly charmed, utterly fascinated by his life, and I asked him to explain to me concepts I already knew (remember, they like you smart in order to validate their identity as a man who likes smart women, and they still love teaching you things)." https://knowingless.com/2021/10/19/becoming-a-whorelord-the-overly-analytical-guide-to-escorting/ https://knowingless.com/2021/10/19/becoming-a-whorelord-the-...
  - etblg 9mo ago
    > I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking. Well it's not non-existent either, there are a fair number of onlyfans models (and also general actors in the field of pornography who do the same) who do escorting on the side.
- ixtli 9mo ago
  Idk if you mean it literally but conflating the sort of prostitution they ask about on immigration forms with taking naked pictures of yourself seems very wrong.
jjmarr 9mo ago
If one of America's main exports is culture, why would you ban factor inputs? They're also not fungible and extremely mobile. People get attached to specific OF stars and the medium inherently requires remote work. So it's an inherently global labour force that protectionism won't help. American OF models won't magically make more money if you ban immigration unless you also ban cultural imports. The government isn't displacing local talent by importing OF models and gets tax dollars for essentially doing nothing. Those tax dollars pay for schools/hospitals/etc. OF also skews towards young, unmarried women, which balances the gender surplus of unmarried men that generally tries to immigrate. Since they're young, they also have more productivity before drawing on benefits like Medicare or Social Security. By any objective standard OF models are the ideal migrant.
- password54321 9mo ago
  ...I get this is HN but come on. It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You just have society feeding on itself.
  - stackghost 9mo ago
    >It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You can make all the moral judgments you like, but the fact is: They're making money either way, and then spending that money in their local communities. They can spend that money (and pay taxes on it) in the US or not. It's no different economically than a musician or an actor doing the same.
    - password54321 9mo ago
      It was not a moral judgement.
  - drdaeman 9mo ago
    > exploited Isn’t that a derogatory stereotype? Aren’t those men (and women and other folks) as “exploited” as a reader of a book or a player of a game, who understands they’re about to be a part of a fantasy but willingly suspend the disbelief for a short while? It’s only exploitation if this suspension of disbelief is artificially prolonged in nefarious way, with a self-reinforcing fantasy so the person loses touch with the reality and spends increasingly unhealthy amounts of time in a fantasy, or otherwise get conditioned and start to exhibit addiction-like behaviors that aren’t in their best long-term interests. That happens (every entertainment industry has its whales), but saying it’s the norm (rather than a pathological extremity) is sort of stigmatizing.
ericmcer 9mo ago
Influencers as the future of culture is not great. Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? If you watch an interview with Mr. Beast or other famous influencers they are concerningly ignorant, have little self-awareness and a child-like approach to reality. It makes total sense given these are teenagers who were lauded with fame for entertaining other teenagers on social media. I watched the Mr. Beast episode of David Letterman's show, and I had no expectations but figured he must have some charisma as the most watched youtube person. He was unable to explain basic concepts, had no self-awareness, and generally seemed detached from any sort of reality. It was shocking to think that is who is shaping young peoples minds.
- terminalshort 9mo ago
  And how is this is different from movie stars?
  - globular-toast 9mo ago
    A lot of movie stars seem very intelligent and quite conscientious people to me. The directors even more so.
- gowld 9mo ago
  > Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? Hollywood took a bribe from the tobacco industry to make smoking "cool" and infect our nation with cigarettes. > have little self-awareness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpUxn7NybY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpUxn7NybY : "A big opportunity for us is that there are no gatekeepers. There's no one I have to convince to let me do things." :-)
  - tartoran 9mo ago
    > Hollywood took a bribe from the tobacco industry to make smoking "cool" and infect our nation with cigarettes. I think the whole world took up smoking because of Hollywood.
  - timeon 9mo ago
lo_zamoyski 9mo ago
The argument from cinema is flaky and a moral critique of Hollywood's influence is unavoidable. But we're talking about porn here, not cinema. This is decadence and depravity. How can you confuse cinema with the construction of an international whoredom? The numbers are also incommensurate. And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck. Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society. This use of O-1 visas is merely another sign of the downward trajectory of our polity. We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly. Perhaps aesthetically, it is fitting that Trump is the poster boy of this abuse of O-1 visas, but he is at best an emanation and a catalyst of broader and deeper social and cultural processes. In the absence of a minimum of sound moral authority, you can expect the poison that lurks in the mud to hatch out and begin to dominate the polis.
- NickC25 9mo ago
  >And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck. My brother, you've just described modern American culture perfectly.
- testacc74 9mo ago
  What's the difference between Hollywood popcorn films and corn?
- areoform 9mo ago
  > Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society. The walls of Pompeii beg to differ. https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-erotic-art-in-pompeii/ https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-eroti... https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-art-of-pompeii https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-ar... https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a62739329/nsfw-pompeii-painting/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a627393... I am sure there would have been people at the time decrying the creation of pigments and paints as the fall of civilization due to "decadence and depravity." Didn't matter much, did it? > We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly Plato was a wrestler. Plato would like totally be a gym bro, bro. It has been a while since I've read Republic, but I remember Book 8 differently. To quote the IEP, Tyranny arises out of democracy when the desire for freedom to do what one wants becomes extreme (562b-c). The freedom or license aimed at in the democracy becomes so extreme that any limitations on anyone’s freedom seem unfair. Socrates points out that when freedom is taken to such an extreme it produces its opposite, slavery (563e-564a). The tyrant comes about by presenting himself as a champion of the people against the class of the few people who are wealthy (565d-566a). The tyrant is forced to commit a number of acts to gain and retain power: accuse people falsely, attack his kinsmen, bring people to trial under false pretenses, kill many people, exile many people, and purport to cancel the debts of the poor to gain their support (565e-566a). The tyrant eliminates the rich, brave, and wise people in the city since he perceives them as threats to his power (567c). Socrates indicates that the tyrant faces the dilemma to either live with worthless people or with good people who may eventually depose him and chooses to live with worthless people (567d). The tyrant ends up using mercenaries as his guards since he cannot trust any of the citizens (567d-e). The tyrant also needs a very large army and will spend the city’s money (568d-e), and will not hesitate to kill members of his own family if they resist his ways (569b-c). This summary matches my recollection more closely than yours. Could you please quote primary sources on what exactly you mean by "Plato's description of social decline?"
seydor 9mo ago
But influencers are by default distributed and don't really need to be in a single place. Most of their collabs are in luxurious venues around the world (Because we live in a world worshipping rich stuff but that s another matter) Plus AI porn is already a thing
aforwardslash 9mo ago
> why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2 The reason why Hollywood even exists is because it was a way of escaping the enforcement of patents and royalties. And it is easy being the cultural center of the western world when everything other cultural-relevant city in the western hemisphere is somewhat in ruins. Other than that, the lettering is a racist monument of a bygone era. > You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ I'm not a US citizen, but lets face it - there is some irony in seeing some scientists fleeing for abroad offers, some probably deported, and having influencers or glorified strippers benefiting from some ill-thought program. > These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. Do you have kids? I do. People don't give 2 f** about Hollywood or their "stars". Maybe in america. We have our own clowns here, and 15 minutes of fame doesn't require being predated on by some director (thankfully). My daughter couldn't name a single actor even if she wanted to - because movies are (mostly) dead, and series are a commodity. And I'm not saying this as some weirdo who doesn't own a TV or something - we have Disney, SkyShowTime, HBO, Amazon, etc. Its just "kids dont care about that anymore". > They create the memes of six-seven-ification So, do you know what that means exactly? Are you a Skrilla’s fan? Just asking, because from the tone of your response, you seem to have no idea of the meaning - just like kids saying "theez nuts" or whatever.
- jonahrd 9mo ago
  I think you misunderstood GP's point, that it's now the _influencers_ and social media stars who are shaping culture. Not Hollywood or its stars.
  - throwaway2037 9mo ago
    I disagree. I think the attention economy is a new, parallel universe of fame. Yes, old Hollywood and new social media interact and affect each other, but they are still fairly independent. Most Hollywood actors don't have a very large social media presence -- it is probably mostly managed by their PR team. And few social media influencers make it in Hollywood as actors or actresses.
- throwaway2037 9mo ago
sakopov 9mo ago
Man we're making some giant leaps equating early Hollywood talent with a bunch of modern day internet hoes.
- RealityVoid 9mo ago
  Are we? It feels the same just this time you're the old person and it's your turn to disapprove instead of being in the cultural wave.
mikkupikku 9mo ago
All of the exotic acting talent in the world won't save an industry that's forgotten the very basics of how to make a good movie.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
fennecfoxy 9mo ago
>These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification. I'd disagree, six-seven-ification is caused by the human desire for clout and tribal motivations - I'd argue that social currency is the reason people pursue fiat currency; ask yourself this, if I have you $100 billion, but you could not interact with any human beings from then on, would that $100 billion still matter? Rather than influencers forcing memes, "six-seven-ification" arises organically from the authors' pursuing of belonging/clout within a tribe. What I would say is more interesting is that the lifetime of such cultural outputs is becoming more and more fleeting. For Millenials & gen X our memes seemed to have quite a bit of permanence over the years. For the boomers and silent generations before us, their cultures were even more static (and traditional) by comparison. For gen z/a it seems their cultural language changes month to month, sometimes week to week. Memes aren't enjoyed for years now, they're enjoyed for a few months. Horizontally spinning rat, Coffin dance, etc are all ancient history now. And you can see the reaction to this; there are spikes in search interest on a lot of classic (2005-2015) memes, Gen Z is desperately embracing retro tech like camcorders, polaroids and 90s/00s outfits in a snap back to reality. The gravity of this cannot be understated. Mom's spaghetti.

darth_avocado 9mo ago

I have no judgement on these models. Everyone can make money through legal means as they deem fit. But at the same time, the immigration system historically penalized anyone who engages in prostitution and actively denied entry to people found to be engaged in it. There is an explicit question about this in all immigration forms. Which is why it’s surprising that O-1 visas are being awarded to OnlyFans models. Maybe OF isn’t prostitution according to how it’s being interpreted, but it’s very surprising.

mrguyorama 9mo ago
Why should prostitutes not be allowed to immigrate to the US?
- darth_avocado 9mo ago
  That is beyond my pay grade. I’m just stating how the immigration system has worked historically.
- rurban 9mo ago
  Because their abilities are not in the extraordinary artistic abilities category. It's not Hollywood, it's Florida.
palata 9mo ago
If OnlyFans is not prostitution (and in my understanding it is not), then I don't see why it is surprising?
nemomarx 9mo ago
how would it be interpreted as prostitution? the close analogue is porn stars right
- gampleman 9mo ago
  Porn comes from pornē, Greek for prostitute. So at least etymologically (and arguably logically as both involve sex for money) porn is prostitution. If that’s accepted, then I find it hard not to also accept OF as a form of prostitution.
  - ghef453 9mo ago
    School comes from skholē, Greek for "leisure" or "spare time.". Therefore people can't be stressed for finals at university, since it's all leisure! “Etymologically, X comes from Y, therefore X is a form of Y” is quite the jump in logic...
- darth_avocado 9mo ago
  Well Sweden sure thinks it could be a form of prostitution. While Some form of OF is similar to pornography (pre recorded shows) other is similar to prostitution and therefore illegal (paying for custom live sexual acts). Obviously Sweden isn’t US, but it’s not as clear as “OF is just porn”. https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2025-06-10/sweden-parliament-criminalizes-the-purchase-of-online-sexual-acts/ https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2025-06-10/swe...
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
areoform 9mo ago
Disclaimer: I don't mean this comment as an insult to you or anyone else here. It's meant to be slightly tongue in cheek. I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking. You're misunderstanding what these people - esports athletes, successful streamers, influencers, OF models etc - actually do. They create and maintain parasocial relationships. The point isn't just the gameplay or nudes / sex videos or commentary. For e.g., I (and a bunch of other young women for some reason) love to watch Temet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go8EJbNaIHg while working. It's the way they reflect back to their audience and allow them to become a part of their performance. It's kind of like the place where everyone knows your name? These are digital third places and the content (whether it be neon blue bunny hopping characters or a graphic video of someone having sex) is a mechanism for bonding / a part of the activity. Kind of like the alcohol at the pub, I suppose. That's where real influence comes from in this age. If you think OF is prostitution, you're fundamentally misunderstanding what will drive power and culture in this century.
- TheOtherHobbes 9mo ago
  There's a strong parasocial element to traditional prostitution, although it's used more by high-end "escorts" who deliberately cultivate conversational skills. So none of this is new. "My default strategy was this: I would invite the man in, we’d sit down and talk for a while. I’d establish physical contact in the conversation by touching his hand when laughing at a joke, or crossing my leg so it bumped into his. I would become increasingly charmed, utterly fascinated by his life, and I asked him to explain to me concepts I already knew (remember, they like you smart in order to validate their identity as a man who likes smart women, and they still love teaching you things)." https://knowingless.com/2021/10/19/becoming-a-whorelord-the-overly-analytical-guide-to-escorting/ https://knowingless.com/2021/10/19/becoming-a-whorelord-the-...
- etblg 9mo ago
  > I hate to be that person, but the fact that so many people on HN think OF is prostitution is revealing of the site's demographics (i.e. older). It is, as some may put it, boomer thinking. Well it's not non-existent either, there are a fair number of onlyfans models (and also general actors in the field of pornography who do the same) who do escorting on the side.
ixtli 9mo ago
Idk if you mean it literally but conflating the sort of prostitution they ask about on immigration forms with taking naked pictures of yourself seems very wrong.

jjmarr 9mo ago

If one of America's main exports is culture, why would you ban factor inputs? They're also not fungible and extremely mobile. People get attached to specific OF stars and the medium inherently requires remote work. So it's an inherently global labour force that protectionism won't help. American OF models won't magically make more money if you ban immigration unless you also ban cultural imports. The government isn't displacing local talent by importing OF models and gets tax dollars for essentially doing nothing. Those tax dollars pay for schools/hospitals/etc. OF also skews towards young, unmarried women, which balances the gender surplus of unmarried men that generally tries to immigrate. Since they're young, they also have more productivity before drawing on benefits like Medicare or Social Security. By any objective standard OF models are the ideal migrant.

password54321 9mo ago
...I get this is HN but come on. It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You just have society feeding on itself.
- stackghost 9mo ago
  >It is just modern day JasminCam for lonely men that are being exploited through parasocial relationships. It is the opposite of productive. You can make all the moral judgments you like, but the fact is: They're making money either way, and then spending that money in their local communities. They can spend that money (and pay taxes on it) in the US or not. It's no different economically than a musician or an actor doing the same.
  - password54321 9mo ago
    It was not a moral judgement.
- drdaeman 9mo ago
  > exploited Isn’t that a derogatory stereotype? Aren’t those men (and women and other folks) as “exploited” as a reader of a book or a player of a game, who understands they’re about to be a part of a fantasy but willingly suspend the disbelief for a short while? It’s only exploitation if this suspension of disbelief is artificially prolonged in nefarious way, with a self-reinforcing fantasy so the person loses touch with the reality and spends increasingly unhealthy amounts of time in a fantasy, or otherwise get conditioned and start to exhibit addiction-like behaviors that aren’t in their best long-term interests. That happens (every entertainment industry has its whales), but saying it’s the norm (rather than a pathological extremity) is sort of stigmatizing.

ericmcer 9mo ago

Influencers as the future of culture is not great. Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? If you watch an interview with Mr. Beast or other famous influencers they are concerningly ignorant, have little self-awareness and a child-like approach to reality. It makes total sense given these are teenagers who were lauded with fame for entertaining other teenagers on social media. I watched the Mr. Beast episode of David Letterman's show, and I had no expectations but figured he must have some charisma as the most watched youtube person. He was unable to explain basic concepts, had no self-awareness, and generally seemed detached from any sort of reality. It was shocking to think that is who is shaping young peoples minds.

terminalshort 9mo ago
And how is this is different from movie stars?
- globular-toast 9mo ago
  A lot of movie stars seem very intelligent and quite conscientious people to me. The directors even more so.
gowld 9mo ago
> Hollywood had a ton of issues but it at least had some... class? Hollywood took a bribe from the tobacco industry to make smoking "cool" and infect our nation with cigarettes. > have little self-awareness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpUxn7NybY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpUxn7NybY : "A big opportunity for us is that there are no gatekeepers. There's no one I have to convince to let me do things." :-)
- tartoran 9mo ago
  > Hollywood took a bribe from the tobacco industry to make smoking "cool" and infect our nation with cigarettes. I think the whole world took up smoking because of Hollywood.
- timeon 9mo ago

lo_zamoyski 9mo ago

The argument from cinema is flaky and a moral critique of Hollywood's influence is unavoidable. But we're talking about porn here, not cinema. This is decadence and depravity. How can you confuse cinema with the construction of an international whoredom? The numbers are also incommensurate. And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck. Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society. This use of O-1 visas is merely another sign of the downward trajectory of our polity. We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly. Perhaps aesthetically, it is fitting that Trump is the poster boy of this abuse of O-1 visas, but he is at best an emanation and a catalyst of broader and deeper social and cultural processes. In the absence of a minimum of sound moral authority, you can expect the poison that lurks in the mud to hatch out and begin to dominate the polis.

NickC25 9mo ago
>And TikTok is the antithesis of culture. It's consumerist rubbish that encourages a vapid, thoughtless, and illiterate consumption of shallow material. The article even mentions the monetary motivations of those posting. Any gimmick will do just to make a buck. My brother, you've just described modern American culture perfectly.
testacc74 9mo ago
What's the difference between Hollywood popcorn films and corn?
areoform 9mo ago
> Let us not relativize culture. If you relativize it, then your argument falls apart anyway. Authentic culture serves human beings. It involves learning from, developing, deepening, refining, and correcting what came before. Trash content doesn't do this. It is cultural poison. It ruins people's minds and wrecks society. The walls of Pompeii beg to differ. https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-erotic-art-in-pompeii/ https://pompeiiarchaeologicalpark.com/social-norms-and-eroti... https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-art-of-pompeii https://mariasorensen.substack.com/p/the-forbidden-erotic-ar... https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a62739329/nsfw-pompeii-painting/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a627393... I am sure there would have been people at the time decrying the creation of pigments and paints as the fall of civilization due to "decadence and depravity." Didn't matter much, did it? > We are following Plato's description of social decline perfectly Plato was a wrestler. Plato would like totally be a gym bro, bro. It has been a while since I've read Republic, but I remember Book 8 differently. To quote the IEP, Tyranny arises out of democracy when the desire for freedom to do what one wants becomes extreme (562b-c). The freedom or license aimed at in the democracy becomes so extreme that any limitations on anyone’s freedom seem unfair. Socrates points out that when freedom is taken to such an extreme it produces its opposite, slavery (563e-564a). The tyrant comes about by presenting himself as a champion of the people against the class of the few people who are wealthy (565d-566a). The tyrant is forced to commit a number of acts to gain and retain power: accuse people falsely, attack his kinsmen, bring people to trial under false pretenses, kill many people, exile many people, and purport to cancel the debts of the poor to gain their support (565e-566a). The tyrant eliminates the rich, brave, and wise people in the city since he perceives them as threats to his power (567c). Socrates indicates that the tyrant faces the dilemma to either live with worthless people or with good people who may eventually depose him and chooses to live with worthless people (567d). The tyrant ends up using mercenaries as his guards since he cannot trust any of the citizens (567d-e). The tyrant also needs a very large army and will spend the city’s money (568d-e), and will not hesitate to kill members of his own family if they resist his ways (569b-c). This summary matches my recollection more closely than yours. Could you please quote primary sources on what exactly you mean by "Plato's description of social decline?"

seydor 9mo ago

But influencers are by default distributed and don't really need to be in a single place. Most of their collabs are in luxurious venues around the world (Because we live in a world worshipping rich stuff but that s another matter) Plus AI porn is already a thing

aforwardslash 9mo ago

> why Hollywood became the Earth's center of cultural gravity post-WW2 The reason why Hollywood even exists is because it was a way of escaping the enforcement of patents and royalties. And it is easy being the cultural center of the western world when everything other cultural-relevant city in the western hemisphere is somewhat in ruins. Other than that, the lettering is a racist monument of a bygone era. > You may argue that these people aren't of such import, but I would beg to differ I'm not a US citizen, but lets face it - there is some irony in seeing some scientists fleeing for abroad offers, some probably deported, and having influencers or glorified strippers benefiting from some ill-thought program. > These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. Do you have kids? I do. People don't give 2 f** about Hollywood or their "stars". Maybe in america. We have our own clowns here, and 15 minutes of fame doesn't require being predated on by some director (thankfully). My daughter couldn't name a single actor even if she wanted to - because movies are (mostly) dead, and series are a commodity. And I'm not saying this as some weirdo who doesn't own a TV or something - we have Disney, SkyShowTime, HBO, Amazon, etc. Its just "kids dont care about that anymore". > They create the memes of six-seven-ification So, do you know what that means exactly? Are you a Skrilla’s fan? Just asking, because from the tone of your response, you seem to have no idea of the meaning - just like kids saying "theez nuts" or whatever.

jonahrd 9mo ago
I think you misunderstood GP's point, that it's now the _influencers_ and social media stars who are shaping culture. Not Hollywood or its stars.
- throwaway2037 9mo ago
  I disagree. I think the attention economy is a new, parallel universe of fame. Yes, old Hollywood and new social media interact and affect each other, but they are still fairly independent. Most Hollywood actors don't have a very large social media presence -- it is probably mostly managed by their PR team. And few social media influencers make it in Hollywood as actors or actresses.
throwaway2037 9mo ago

sakopov 9mo ago

Man we're making some giant leaps equating early Hollywood talent with a bunch of modern day internet hoes.

RealityVoid 9mo ago
Are we? It feels the same just this time you're the old person and it's your turn to disapprove instead of being in the cultural wave.

mikkupikku 9mo ago

All of the exotic acting talent in the world won't save an industry that's forgotten the very basics of how to make a good movie.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

fennecfoxy 9mo ago

>These people shape the culture that the young people around you consume. They create the memes of six-seven-ification. I'd disagree, six-seven-ification is caused by the human desire for clout and tribal motivations - I'd argue that social currency is the reason people pursue fiat currency; ask yourself this, if I have you $100 billion, but you could not interact with any human beings from then on, would that $100 billion still matter? Rather than influencers forcing memes, "six-seven-ification" arises organically from the authors' pursuing of belonging/clout within a tribe. What I would say is more interesting is that the lifetime of such cultural outputs is becoming more and more fleeting. For Millenials & gen X our memes seemed to have quite a bit of permanence over the years. For the boomers and silent generations before us, their cultures were even more static (and traditional) by comparison. For gen z/a it seems their cultural language changes month to month, sometimes week to week. Memes aren't enjoyed for years now, they're enjoyed for a few months. Horizontally spinning rat, Coffin dance, etc are all ancient history now. And you can see the reaction to this; there are spikes in search interest on a lot of classic (2005-2015) memes, Gen Z is desperately embracing retro tech like camcorders, polaroids and 90s/00s outfits in a snap back to reality. The gravity of this cannot be understated. Mom's spaghetti.