8 ms·

The Next Twenty Years: What Windows 8's Closed Distribution Means for Developers

114 points by doty 14y ago

freehunter 14y ago
> And these are just some of the features in this version of Windows. Who knows what new features Microsoft will add in future versions that will make desktop apps even less able to compete with native apps? Slippery slopes are fun to think about, but are difficult to form a logical and rational argument with. You can't base decisions on a slippery slope. All we have are the facts currently available today. Today we have one version of Windows being sold. Next week we'll have three (Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows RT)! What if the week after that we end up with six versions of Windows?!
- bradwestness 14y ago
  Judging by current trends, the number of versions of Windows available for purchase is tripling every week! By Christmas we'll have 59,049 versions of Windows to choose from!
- fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
  You can't base decisions on a slippery slope. All we have are the facts currently available today. This kind of thinking is essential for a court system. That's why we say that justice is blind. But if you are not in the middle of a lawsuit, you should not use this type of thinking. Thinking about trends and creating testable theories is essential for polity planing. You can't prepare for the future if you don't make projections about it.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    But this same line of thinking can be extrapolated on any system. OSX has a software store! Sure they let you install third party software now, but who knows what other restrictions they'll put on it later? Linux systems have software repositories! Sure they let you install software outside of these repos, but who knows what kind of restrictions they'll put on it later? The new version of my laptop doesn't have a floppy drive! Sure there's a DVD drive and USB, but who knows what other ports they're going to remove? It's been a year since Microsoft announced Windows 8's restrictions. That's a pretty darn good run-up time, industry-wide. If/when they do put in some new restrictions, it's not going to be sprung on anyone overnight. All these articles are doing is spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about something that may or may not come to pass.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      Well it can be wise (if a little gloomy) to think about the worst case scenario. I remember people having the same worries about OS X anyway. At least with Linux you have multiple distributions and the source code available so if you don't like a particular decision it can just be forked. The article is talking more about 20 years down the line.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
nilsbunger 14y ago
How come I could install chrome and get a metro UI on windows 8, even though it didn't go through Microsoft's store? I keep reading that windows 8 distribution is limited to the ms store for apps with metro UI , but that doesn't seem to be the case from my limited experience. Can anyone clarify?
- cryptoz 14y ago
  I believe this article is about Windows RT. Are you running the regular/full/whatever-you-call-it Windows 8?
  - nilsbunger 14y ago
    I am. But the article isnt about RT only. I've also read this in a number of other places - only windows 8 enterprise officially supports side loading. And Natch has very public refused to submit to windows store, and is pissed that his app can't be metrofied. So I'm just confused why it worked for me.
    - nilsbunger 14y ago
      Another reference pointing this out: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10264451/will-metro-style-apps-be-able-to-be-installed-outside-the-market-frame http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10264451/will-metro-style...
- gecko 14y ago
  In general, Metro applications must go through Microsoft's app store. There are three exceptions: 1. You can add self-signed certificates and side-load. This is actually quite easy for developers, but a no-go for most people; 2. You can push corporate apps out to Windows 8 Enterprise devices; and finally, the way Chrome is doing this, which is 3. Browsers are treated really, really specially. Microsoft is still bound by the US anti-trust agreement to allow other browsers on Intel computers. In order to facilitate that with the Metro environment, on Intel-based Windows 8 computers only (i.e., not Windows RT tablets), the DEFAULT browser may optionally provide a Metro interface, even if that browser does not come through the Microsoft store. It is this exception that Chrome (and, in beta, Firefox) is exploiting. This trick only works for browsers. And, further, the way it's implemented is an insanely stupid horrible pain in the ass. I really like IE10 for tablet browsing: it's very fast, it has outstanding touch support, and it's actually a great rendering engine. On the other hand, you can pry Chrome out of my cold, dead, festering corpse's fingers when I'm on Windows 8's desktop. So the logical thing would be to use IE in Metro, and Chrome on the desktop. But you know what? You can't sanely do that. Only the default browser gets to live in Metro. And when I say default, I really mean default. If you set Chrome as your default browser, then you cannot launch Metro IE--the ONLY Metro browser you can launch is Chrome. It's the little things like this that are making it REALLY hard for me to stay a Windows 8 supporter. The more I use it, the more the little, idiotic things like this are making me go crazy.
apetrovic 14y ago
I don't get it. Everyone is gushing about the post-pc era, Eric Schmidt announced a few days ago that Microsoft is irrelevant, and the article takes for granted that Microsoft and PC as we know it will survive for next 20 years, and Windows will be dominant platform on PC? If history teach us anything, it's that there's always some solution for the problem. If Windows 8 marketplace turns to be too restrictive, game developers will turn to Steam on Linux. And with enough gamers on Linux, Asus or Gigabyte will not be pressed to make only "compatible with Windows 8" UEFI-locked motherboards. Or the consumers (and the gamers) will find Win8 marketplace acceptable. Or maybe in five or ten years some other player will sweep the market. Looking at the current technology and lamenting about the end of the world is just plain stupid.
- cryptoz 14y ago
  Yeah. This is the "extrapolate one technology, ignore everything else and base your future on that" syndrome. Star Trek did that with spaceships and AI. You can explore the galaxy way past lightspeed, but your computer can't put up the shields to save your life unless your captain yells "Shields!". Right.
  - marshray 14y ago
    I think the captain even had to yell "Shields up".
  - krapp 14y ago
    To be fair (and a pedant) that was for the sake of melodrama. The computers exploded in a shower of sparks during battle for the same reason. Rule of cool.
- RickHull 14y ago
  > If Windows 8 marketplace turns to be too restrictive, game developers will turn to Steam on Linux. Absolutely. I think this is the implication of the article. > Looking at the current technology and lamenting about the end of the world is just plain stupid. I didn't sense any "lamenting about the end of the world" -- rather the end of the status quo, where the 2011 GOTY was packaged exclusively for the most recent Windows platform.
maguay 14y ago
The original article link, from the author's own blog: http://mollyrocket.com/casey/index.html http://mollyrocket.com/casey/index.html (happens to be much more readable there, too)
programminggeek 14y ago
I wonder if MSFT will stop supporting SDK's that don't run through their store long term. At some point will you only be able to write things that run on Windows that go through the Windows store? It looks like Win RT is going to go that route. I think it will be hard for MSFT to totally shut that down on mainline Windows for a while, but longer term it might all look a lot like walled garden distribution across all Windows. I imagine that MSFT will have some kind of enterprise program where you can run your own Windows Store Server to do enterprise deploys of Metro apps. Either way, it looks like Linux might end up the one place where you can install and run your own software over the long haul.
- bradwestness 14y ago
  It's going to take a while, but they are definitely going to keep moving in that direction. I think it's safe to expect future versions of Windows to continually de-emphasize and virtualize the desktop (much like what they did with DOS). Remember how they almost didn't release a version of Visual Studio Express 2012 that could target the desktop?
  - silverbax88 14y ago
    If they do this - and they have always wanted to - it will open the door for massive development on other platforms. I say this as a Microsoft developer. After looking at what's coming, both in the mediocrity of the upcoming OS releases and the push to put everything behind a MSFT wall, I've been actively looking at whether we should be moving primarily to Linux.
    - bsphil 14y ago
      The only thing keeping me on Windows is the games. If Steam was on Linux with a strong library to back it up, I'd switch right now.
      - SkyMarshal 14y ago
        Games, document formats, workforce familiarity, and pre-existing infrastructure (Exchange, bureaucratic corporate IT depts, etc). Still a fairly large hurdle to overcome, but I'm hoping Valve can at least break down the games one.
onli 14y ago
So the point of the article is that because of the bundling of windows store and Metro UI, Windows will become a closed platform. Like with DOS, in some versions the desktop UI will vanish. If that would happen, GNU/Linux would be the biggest remaining open (biggest free it is already) operating system. That would be a good thing. If Microsoft really tries to control Windows-Apps that much that they ban popular games, they probably will kill Windows and games will adapt to Linux. Fine with me. But it doesn't have to come that way. The comparison to DOS is probably flawed. The new UI is, as far as i understood without being a windows developer, just an UI (with maybe a new API). The classical desktop is not like DOS an operating system Windows has to evolve from. Though it's quite possible that they might try to kill it sometime, it is not the same technical cause like the move away from DOS. Anyway, before declaring Windows dead, let's wait how well Windows 8 sells and how many will use the new UI and the Windows store.
- AimHere 14y ago
  >If that would happen, GNU/Linux would be the biggest remaining open (biggest free it is already) operating system. OSX and Android are both open and both have larger install-bases than GNU/Linux. Linux is fourth in the pecking order of open operating systems, or third if you only mean desktop computers. >Though it's quite possible that they might try to kill it sometime, it is not the same technical cause like the move away from DOS. It's not about any technical cause. The argument is that users will flock towards the new method of interacting with computers, the same way they went headlong towards the windows/mouse/icon thing and the developers will be forced to follow suit, and thereby become slaved to Microsoft (or alternatively, run off and join the GNU/Linux/Android circus). The users didn't care whether DOS was an operating system or Windows 95 was just a shell on DOS 6 point whatever. They just wanted to be able to run their mission-critical applications like Word and Excel and Solitaire without having to learn and then invoke inscrutable command line incantations like 'DIR' and 'FORMAT A:' and 'ECHO c:\XCOM\XCOM.EXE > c:\AUTOEXEC.BAT'. Microsoft thinks the same thing is going to happen with our Brave New Tabletized World; they'll keep the old desktop-style around as a legacy, but they'll exert control over anything touchscreeny, and let nature take it's course.
  - 14y ago
nissimk 14y ago
is there really no way to "side-load?" According to this, that will be enabled in the Server and Enterprise editions: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps-on-windows-8-pro http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps... Between this and UEFI secure boot these guys are really messing up the PC ecosystem.
- freehunter 14y ago
  What about the UEFI secure boot is messing up the PC ecosystem? You're referring to the widely-spread but extremely false rumor that secure boot is turned on, can't be turned off, and Microsoft has to approve any other OS you want to install? Because that's not true. Secure boot is turned on, but for Windows 8 certification, it must be able to be disabled by the user. Microsoft is mandating that PC builders give you the option to disable secure boot. So I don't see how this is changing really anything. Maybe you can explain.
  - mpolun 14y ago
    you're right for x86. For arm secure boot cannot be turned off.
  - marshray 14y ago
    Last I heard any manufacturer of an ARM device capable of running Windows RT would be required to prevent the loading any other OSes via secure boot, or the disabling of secure boot.
    - freehunter 14y ago
      But that's not messing up the PC ecosystem. PCs running Windows will be just like PCs running Windows always have been. Tablets and other ARM devices will be just like tablets and other ARM devices traditionally have been; the OS that comes preinstalled is the OS you have. You've really never been able to install, for example, Linux overtop of Windows on an ARM device before. The status quo isn't changing. The only exception to the ARM rule in recent years has been Android, in a niche market, and only on some devices. That's not changing either.
jiggy2011 14y ago
I find it very impossible to believe that in 20 years there will be no "adult" games available. For one thing the XboX is a very closed platform run by Microsoft and there is no lack of violent games available there. I imagine this part of the agreement is simply an oversight that will be corrected in one form or another. The only other possible way that this could play out if MS stubbornly don't want to allow adult content on computers is that anybody who wants to play games will switch to another platform, be it Android or Ubuntu or whatever. The most likely dangerous thing that this could do for game developers would be if MS took control of launch dates for third party games so that they didn't clash with games they planned to heavily promote themselves or with preferred partners. So maybe if you're an Indie developer you can't launch a game during the Xmas period if Halo 6 is due to come out or something like that.
- bradwestness 14y ago
  Yeah, there's no way they don't make an exception for legitimate mature rated games. The restrictions are just there so they have something they can point to when they reject malware apps or apps that are blatantly promoting violence or drug use or whatever. They just released a Netflix app, and you can watch as many R-rated movies on it as you like. You can certainly view adult content with any Metro-enabled web browser. There's no way, as a corporation, that they're going to give up the revenue stream that is mature rated PC games.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > Yeah, there's no way they don't make an exception for legitimate mature rated games. Why should they? They don't have any reason to allow mature games, which certainly haven't been very common on consoles. It looks like PCs are headed in the same direction. Chances are these sorts of products will simply follow the path of least resistance and move to the web. Edit: my bad, I'm not a big gamer, so I'm not familiar with the ratings terminology. When I said "mature" games, I was referring to games with adult content, not the games where you can shoot/kill people.
    - deleted 14y ago
bitwize 14y ago
Windows 8 is the Oogieloves of operating systems: no one wants it, but that doesn't stop its creator from pushing it hard.
- mariusmg 14y ago
  Actually Win 8 is a great OS (from my personal point of view is Ms best OS so far). So saying no one wants it it a stretch.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    I like Win 8, I work for Microsoft, but we will have to wait until its released to see how the market accepts it (and pass judgement). So saying either way is a bit early so far, its definitely a risky bet.
leeoniya 14y ago
In what way are Windows 8 app certification requirements written in stone? If there are hundreds of millions to be made from changing some text, trust me, those rules will fall faster than Felix Baumgartner.
- cube13 14y ago
  In all honesty, the requirements aren't that bad, especially for game designers that aren't just attempting to make a quick buck. There's really nothing in there that should force good developers to really have to stretch to follow them. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh69408... And their user agreement is friendlier to FOSS projects than Apple's. c. Third Party Rights. Your app, including any app that contains FOSS, must not infringe or misappropriate any intellectual property or personal right of any third party. You will obtain and maintain all necessary rights, clearances and consents, and pay all performance, licensing and reuse fees, including any consideration associated with providing music or video related content in and through your app. If your app includes FOSS, you must comply with all applicable FOSS licensing terms, including any source availability requirements. d. FOSS Software. If your app includes FOSS, it must not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS license.
  - mattmanser 14y ago
    Did you read the article? He's talking about this, mass censorship that many of today's games and TV shows cannot pass: 5.1 Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone 5.2 Your app must not contain content that advocates discrimination, hatred, or violence based on membership in a particular racial, ethnic, national, linguistic, religious, or other social group, or based on a person’s gender, age, or sexual orientation 5.3 Your app must not contain content or functionality that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes illegal activity 5.4 Your app must not contain or display content that a reasonable person would consider to be obscene 5.5 Your app must not contain content that is defamatory, libelous or slanderous, or threatening 5.6 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes excessive or irresponsible use of alcohol or tobacco products, drugs or weapons 5.7 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes extreme or gratuitous violence, human rights violations, or the creation or use of weapons against a person or animal in the real world 5.8 Your app must not contain excessive or gratuitous profanity
keyboardP 14y ago
I talked to the author about this article, but I don't buy some of what was said. I wrote up a rebuttal (http://digitalbalance.tumblr.com/post/33276814981/windows-8-is-just-as-open-as-windows-7 http://digitalbalance.tumblr.com/post/33276814981/windows-8-...) when the author originally posted it. Basically, IMO, the article didn't really have hard facts and was mainly just pushing slippery slope arguments. Whilst there's potential for this to become a closed platform, there's no evidence that it will be. The DOS/Win 3.0 similarity doesn't work because Win 3.0 did not close off the platform at all. There's been no precedence set on the desktop to close the platform off completely and I doubt it'd do MS any favours to do such a thing, especially when gamers will soon have Steam on Linux (which is the one thing stopping some gamers from moving from Windows to Linux).
- Maascamp 14y ago
  Not sure why you're being down voted, the very first sentence in the article is quite a stretching of the truth.
  - keyboardP 14y ago
    The whole article came off a bit sensationalist (do people really believe there won't be any 18+ games in the future on PC?). I agree that MS could close the platform, I felt the article assumed that it already has and built it up from there. I guess people disagree with me here and do feel that it's closed :/
    - marshray 14y ago
      The point isn't whether or not there will be a PC or whether or not there will be 18+ games on it. The point is whether or not there Microsoft will be on the PC loading them. If so, how does Microsoft get from A to B? How do developers deal with the restrictions in the meantime?
      - keyboardP 14y ago
        I mentioned the 18+ games part to highlight the hyperbolic nature of the article. It assumed, based on current guidelines , that Skyrim et al. would not be allowed by MS. But that situation is quite absurd because it assumes the guidelines will never change and that MS is willing to lose money on the biggest gaming franchises. Using extremes like this doesn't support an argument. There is no actual evidence (i.e. non-hypothetical) in the article that MS plans on losing the hardcore gamer demographic on the PC. I don't see any restrictions on developers that haven't existed before. Developers can still program desktop games and avoid the store, just like they've been doing all these years. I feel there's this illusion where it's either the old, "open", Microsoft business model or the closed down Apple model. There can be a middle area where certain form factors, such as tablets, can benefit profit-wise from a closed down system (iPad, WinRT) and other form factors, like the desktop, can benefit from a dual system (ie consumers can opt for the store, or just download like normal). This notion that MS has and will fully lock down all their platforms seems unlikely to me personally.
ekyo777 14y ago
is it legal to make an installer that would explicitly add a self-signed certificate to be able to add the application? assuming there would be a way to distribute that installer other than microsoft's store
cabirum 14y ago
FUD. Desktop apps don't have to be distributed through Windows Store. In fact they can not. Windows Store contains only Metro UI apps, available for both tablets and desktops. All the software and games and stuff are installed exactly the same way as in other Windowses, without any restrictions implied by the article. Steam isn't going anywhere, Skyrim, Mass Effect are not, either. The problem does not exist.
- s_tec 14y ago
  The article argues that Metro apps are the future, not desktop apps. If the past is any guide to the future, desktop apps will be unacceptable to consumers in 10 years time and completely unusable in 20 years time (based on the MS-DOS to Windows transition). Steam and other apps may work fine now, but what happens in 10 years? That is the long-term issue this article is trying to bring up.
  - keyboardP 14y ago
    The MS-DOS to Windows transition was more technical than business. It is not an apt analogy because Windows Next being completely closed down would be a purely business decision. If we're using 'what-if' arguments, then what if Microsoft does remove desktop in favour of Metro and then open up Metro to everyone?
  - stinos 14y ago
    That's very well possible, but to some extent only. It's at least doubtfull that desktop apps like CAD/IDE software will ever ceise to exist.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Presumably Steam will either start developing to the Metro interface, or continue targeting the old desktop interface. They are hardly about to throw up their hands and say, "well we had a good run but we're done now".
  - msbarnett 14y ago
    Given Microsoft's track record with Win32 replacements, it seems a little far-fetched. I'd say there's more of a risk for Metro developers that the platform will be EOL'd/legacy/forgotten in 5 years than there is a risk to traditional desktop devs.
Spearchucker 14y ago
In my opinion the only reason a closed system like Windows is still so dominant is the open nature of it's software distribution. Close that and the masses will move away. I write Windows apps purely because there are no restrictions on distribution/deployment, and because of the huge user base. When the status quo changes, I move.
pedalpete 14y ago
With one anti-trust case behind them, and a loss (packaging IE as the only browser for those to young to remember), a single access point for all software would likely raise similar flags. Apple can get away with it (or close to it) because they are still not the dominant platform. I suspect we'll get to a point where the App Store, Google Play and Microsoft Store (not sure what Microsoft's is called) will be considered monopolizing the sales channel and be decoupled forcing competition in the store space, or allowing software to be installed without going through a store at all. Thankfully we've got history on our side with installing apps from any source being the default behavior.
mark_l_watson 14y ago
What about open source software? How about applications we might write for ourselves? OS X Mountain Lion is a little fussy about apps from the Internet that did not come from the APple App Store, but it is easy enough to override this default on an app by app basis. I would hope that Microsoft would also allow users to override this restriction. e.g., installing Emacs.
hayksaakian 14y ago
We shit on Microsoft for this but with iOS it's somehow OK?
cmccabe 14y ago
Saying that closed software ecosystems are bad because they hurt games is like saying the Nazis were bad because they made it harder to find good Jewish rye bread. It's like... um... way to focus on the important stuff, Mr. Muratori.

114 points by doty 14y ago

> And these are just some of the features in this version of Windows. Who knows what new features Microsoft will add in future versions that will make desktop apps even less able to compete with native apps? Slippery slopes are fun to think about, but are difficult to form a logical and rational argument with. You can't base decisions on a slippery slope. All we have are the facts currently available today. Today we have one version of Windows being sold. Next week we'll have three (Windows 7, Windows 8, Windows RT)! What if the week after that we end up with six versions of Windows?!

bradwestness 14y ago
Judging by current trends, the number of versions of Windows available for purchase is tripling every week! By Christmas we'll have 59,049 versions of Windows to choose from!
fghh45sdfhr3 14y ago
You can't base decisions on a slippery slope. All we have are the facts currently available today. This kind of thinking is essential for a court system. That's why we say that justice is blind. But if you are not in the middle of a lawsuit, you should not use this type of thinking. Thinking about trends and creating testable theories is essential for polity planing. You can't prepare for the future if you don't make projections about it.
- freehunter 14y ago
  But this same line of thinking can be extrapolated on any system. OSX has a software store! Sure they let you install third party software now, but who knows what other restrictions they'll put on it later? Linux systems have software repositories! Sure they let you install software outside of these repos, but who knows what kind of restrictions they'll put on it later? The new version of my laptop doesn't have a floppy drive! Sure there's a DVD drive and USB, but who knows what other ports they're going to remove? It's been a year since Microsoft announced Windows 8's restrictions. That's a pretty darn good run-up time, industry-wide. If/when they do put in some new restrictions, it's not going to be sprung on anyone overnight. All these articles are doing is spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about something that may or may not come to pass.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Well it can be wise (if a little gloomy) to think about the worst case scenario. I remember people having the same worries about OS X anyway. At least with Linux you have multiple distributions and the source code available so if you don't like a particular decision it can just be forked. The article is talking more about 20 years down the line.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

nilsbunger 14y ago

How come I could install chrome and get a metro UI on windows 8, even though it didn't go through Microsoft's store? I keep reading that windows 8 distribution is limited to the ms store for apps with metro UI , but that doesn't seem to be the case from my limited experience. Can anyone clarify?

cryptoz 14y ago
I believe this article is about Windows RT. Are you running the regular/full/whatever-you-call-it Windows 8?
- nilsbunger 14y ago
  I am. But the article isnt about RT only. I've also read this in a number of other places - only windows 8 enterprise officially supports side loading. And Natch has very public refused to submit to windows store, and is pissed that his app can't be metrofied. So I'm just confused why it worked for me.
  - nilsbunger 14y ago
    Another reference pointing this out: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10264451/will-metro-style-apps-be-able-to-be-installed-outside-the-market-frame http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10264451/will-metro-style...
gecko 14y ago
In general, Metro applications must go through Microsoft's app store. There are three exceptions: 1. You can add self-signed certificates and side-load. This is actually quite easy for developers, but a no-go for most people; 2. You can push corporate apps out to Windows 8 Enterprise devices; and finally, the way Chrome is doing this, which is 3. Browsers are treated really, really specially. Microsoft is still bound by the US anti-trust agreement to allow other browsers on Intel computers. In order to facilitate that with the Metro environment, on Intel-based Windows 8 computers only (i.e., not Windows RT tablets), the DEFAULT browser may optionally provide a Metro interface, even if that browser does not come through the Microsoft store. It is this exception that Chrome (and, in beta, Firefox) is exploiting. This trick only works for browsers. And, further, the way it's implemented is an insanely stupid horrible pain in the ass. I really like IE10 for tablet browsing: it's very fast, it has outstanding touch support, and it's actually a great rendering engine. On the other hand, you can pry Chrome out of my cold, dead, festering corpse's fingers when I'm on Windows 8's desktop. So the logical thing would be to use IE in Metro, and Chrome on the desktop. But you know what? You can't sanely do that. Only the default browser gets to live in Metro. And when I say default, I really mean default. If you set Chrome as your default browser, then you cannot launch Metro IE--the ONLY Metro browser you can launch is Chrome. It's the little things like this that are making it REALLY hard for me to stay a Windows 8 supporter. The more I use it, the more the little, idiotic things like this are making me go crazy.

apetrovic 14y ago

I don't get it. Everyone is gushing about the post-pc era, Eric Schmidt announced a few days ago that Microsoft is irrelevant, and the article takes for granted that Microsoft and PC as we know it will survive for next 20 years, and Windows will be dominant platform on PC? If history teach us anything, it's that there's always some solution for the problem. If Windows 8 marketplace turns to be too restrictive, game developers will turn to Steam on Linux. And with enough gamers on Linux, Asus or Gigabyte will not be pressed to make only "compatible with Windows 8" UEFI-locked motherboards. Or the consumers (and the gamers) will find Win8 marketplace acceptable. Or maybe in five or ten years some other player will sweep the market. Looking at the current technology and lamenting about the end of the world is just plain stupid.

cryptoz 14y ago
Yeah. This is the "extrapolate one technology, ignore everything else and base your future on that" syndrome. Star Trek did that with spaceships and AI. You can explore the galaxy way past lightspeed, but your computer can't put up the shields to save your life unless your captain yells "Shields!". Right.
- marshray 14y ago
  I think the captain even had to yell "Shields up".
- krapp 14y ago
  To be fair (and a pedant) that was for the sake of melodrama. The computers exploded in a shower of sparks during battle for the same reason. Rule of cool.
RickHull 14y ago
> If Windows 8 marketplace turns to be too restrictive, game developers will turn to Steam on Linux. Absolutely. I think this is the implication of the article. > Looking at the current technology and lamenting about the end of the world is just plain stupid. I didn't sense any "lamenting about the end of the world" -- rather the end of the status quo, where the 2011 GOTY was packaged exclusively for the most recent Windows platform.

maguay 14y ago

The original article link, from the author's own blog: http://mollyrocket.com/casey/index.html http://mollyrocket.com/casey/index.html (happens to be much more readable there, too)

programminggeek 14y ago

I wonder if MSFT will stop supporting SDK's that don't run through their store long term. At some point will you only be able to write things that run on Windows that go through the Windows store? It looks like Win RT is going to go that route. I think it will be hard for MSFT to totally shut that down on mainline Windows for a while, but longer term it might all look a lot like walled garden distribution across all Windows. I imagine that MSFT will have some kind of enterprise program where you can run your own Windows Store Server to do enterprise deploys of Metro apps. Either way, it looks like Linux might end up the one place where you can install and run your own software over the long haul.

bradwestness 14y ago
It's going to take a while, but they are definitely going to keep moving in that direction. I think it's safe to expect future versions of Windows to continually de-emphasize and virtualize the desktop (much like what they did with DOS). Remember how they almost didn't release a version of Visual Studio Express 2012 that could target the desktop?
- silverbax88 14y ago
  If they do this - and they have always wanted to - it will open the door for massive development on other platforms. I say this as a Microsoft developer. After looking at what's coming, both in the mediocrity of the upcoming OS releases and the push to put everything behind a MSFT wall, I've been actively looking at whether we should be moving primarily to Linux.
  - bsphil 14y ago
    The only thing keeping me on Windows is the games. If Steam was on Linux with a strong library to back it up, I'd switch right now.
    - SkyMarshal 14y ago
      Games, document formats, workforce familiarity, and pre-existing infrastructure (Exchange, bureaucratic corporate IT depts, etc). Still a fairly large hurdle to overcome, but I'm hoping Valve can at least break down the games one.

onli 14y ago

So the point of the article is that because of the bundling of windows store and Metro UI, Windows will become a closed platform. Like with DOS, in some versions the desktop UI will vanish. If that would happen, GNU/Linux would be the biggest remaining open (biggest free it is already) operating system. That would be a good thing. If Microsoft really tries to control Windows-Apps that much that they ban popular games, they probably will kill Windows and games will adapt to Linux. Fine with me. But it doesn't have to come that way. The comparison to DOS is probably flawed. The new UI is, as far as i understood without being a windows developer, just an UI (with maybe a new API). The classical desktop is not like DOS an operating system Windows has to evolve from. Though it's quite possible that they might try to kill it sometime, it is not the same technical cause like the move away from DOS. Anyway, before declaring Windows dead, let's wait how well Windows 8 sells and how many will use the new UI and the Windows store.

AimHere 14y ago
>If that would happen, GNU/Linux would be the biggest remaining open (biggest free it is already) operating system. OSX and Android are both open and both have larger install-bases than GNU/Linux. Linux is fourth in the pecking order of open operating systems, or third if you only mean desktop computers. >Though it's quite possible that they might try to kill it sometime, it is not the same technical cause like the move away from DOS. It's not about any technical cause. The argument is that users will flock towards the new method of interacting with computers, the same way they went headlong towards the windows/mouse/icon thing and the developers will be forced to follow suit, and thereby become slaved to Microsoft (or alternatively, run off and join the GNU/Linux/Android circus). The users didn't care whether DOS was an operating system or Windows 95 was just a shell on DOS 6 point whatever. They just wanted to be able to run their mission-critical applications like Word and Excel and Solitaire without having to learn and then invoke inscrutable command line incantations like 'DIR' and 'FORMAT A:' and 'ECHO c:\XCOM\XCOM.EXE > c:\AUTOEXEC.BAT'. Microsoft thinks the same thing is going to happen with our Brave New Tabletized World; they'll keep the old desktop-style around as a legacy, but they'll exert control over anything touchscreeny, and let nature take it's course.
- 14y ago

nissimk 14y ago

is there really no way to "side-load?" According to this, that will be enabled in the Server and Enterprise editions: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps-on-windows-8-pro http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps... Between this and UEFI secure boot these guys are really messing up the PC ecosystem.

freehunter 14y ago
What about the UEFI secure boot is messing up the PC ecosystem? You're referring to the widely-spread but extremely false rumor that secure boot is turned on, can't be turned off, and Microsoft has to approve any other OS you want to install? Because that's not true. Secure boot is turned on, but for Windows 8 certification, it must be able to be disabled by the user. Microsoft is mandating that PC builders give you the option to disable secure boot. So I don't see how this is changing really anything. Maybe you can explain.
- mpolun 14y ago
  you're right for x86. For arm secure boot cannot be turned off.
- marshray 14y ago
  Last I heard any manufacturer of an ARM device capable of running Windows RT would be required to prevent the loading any other OSes via secure boot, or the disabling of secure boot.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    But that's not messing up the PC ecosystem. PCs running Windows will be just like PCs running Windows always have been. Tablets and other ARM devices will be just like tablets and other ARM devices traditionally have been; the OS that comes preinstalled is the OS you have. You've really never been able to install, for example, Linux overtop of Windows on an ARM device before. The status quo isn't changing. The only exception to the ARM rule in recent years has been Android, in a niche market, and only on some devices. That's not changing either.

jiggy2011 14y ago

I find it very impossible to believe that in 20 years there will be no "adult" games available. For one thing the XboX is a very closed platform run by Microsoft and there is no lack of violent games available there. I imagine this part of the agreement is simply an oversight that will be corrected in one form or another. The only other possible way that this could play out if MS stubbornly don't want to allow adult content on computers is that anybody who wants to play games will switch to another platform, be it Android or Ubuntu or whatever. The most likely dangerous thing that this could do for game developers would be if MS took control of launch dates for third party games so that they didn't clash with games they planned to heavily promote themselves or with preferred partners. So maybe if you're an Indie developer you can't launch a game during the Xmas period if Halo 6 is due to come out or something like that.

bradwestness 14y ago
Yeah, there's no way they don't make an exception for legitimate mature rated games. The restrictions are just there so they have something they can point to when they reject malware apps or apps that are blatantly promoting violence or drug use or whatever. They just released a Netflix app, and you can watch as many R-rated movies on it as you like. You can certainly view adult content with any Metro-enabled web browser. There's no way, as a corporation, that they're going to give up the revenue stream that is mature rated PC games.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > Yeah, there's no way they don't make an exception for legitimate mature rated games. Why should they? They don't have any reason to allow mature games, which certainly haven't been very common on consoles. It looks like PCs are headed in the same direction. Chances are these sorts of products will simply follow the path of least resistance and move to the web. Edit: my bad, I'm not a big gamer, so I'm not familiar with the ratings terminology. When I said "mature" games, I was referring to games with adult content, not the games where you can shoot/kill people.
  - deleted 14y ago

bitwize 14y ago

Windows 8 is the Oogieloves of operating systems: no one wants it, but that doesn't stop its creator from pushing it hard.

mariusmg 14y ago
Actually Win 8 is a great OS (from my personal point of view is Ms best OS so far). So saying no one wants it it a stretch.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  I like Win 8, I work for Microsoft, but we will have to wait until its released to see how the market accepts it (and pass judgement). So saying either way is a bit early so far, its definitely a risky bet.

leeoniya 14y ago

In what way are Windows 8 app certification requirements written in stone? If there are hundreds of millions to be made from changing some text, trust me, those rules will fall faster than Felix Baumgartner.

cube13 14y ago
In all honesty, the requirements aren't that bad, especially for game designers that aren't just attempting to make a quick buck. There's really nothing in there that should force good developers to really have to stretch to follow them. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh69408... And their user agreement is friendlier to FOSS projects than Apple's. c. Third Party Rights. Your app, including any app that contains FOSS, must not infringe or misappropriate any intellectual property or personal right of any third party. You will obtain and maintain all necessary rights, clearances and consents, and pay all performance, licensing and reuse fees, including any consideration associated with providing music or video related content in and through your app. If your app includes FOSS, you must comply with all applicable FOSS licensing terms, including any source availability requirements. d. FOSS Software. If your app includes FOSS, it must not cause any non-FOSS Microsoft software to become subject to the terms of any FOSS license.
- mattmanser 14y ago
  Did you read the article? He's talking about this, mass censorship that many of today's games and TV shows cannot pass: 5.1 Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone 5.2 Your app must not contain content that advocates discrimination, hatred, or violence based on membership in a particular racial, ethnic, national, linguistic, religious, or other social group, or based on a person’s gender, age, or sexual orientation 5.3 Your app must not contain content or functionality that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes illegal activity 5.4 Your app must not contain or display content that a reasonable person would consider to be obscene 5.5 Your app must not contain content that is defamatory, libelous or slanderous, or threatening 5.6 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes excessive or irresponsible use of alcohol or tobacco products, drugs or weapons 5.7 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes extreme or gratuitous violence, human rights violations, or the creation or use of weapons against a person or animal in the real world 5.8 Your app must not contain excessive or gratuitous profanity

keyboardP 14y ago

I talked to the author about this article, but I don't buy some of what was said. I wrote up a rebuttal (http://digitalbalance.tumblr.com/post/33276814981/windows-8-is-just-as-open-as-windows-7 http://digitalbalance.tumblr.com/post/33276814981/windows-8-...) when the author originally posted it. Basically, IMO, the article didn't really have hard facts and was mainly just pushing slippery slope arguments. Whilst there's potential for this to become a closed platform, there's no evidence that it will be. The DOS/Win 3.0 similarity doesn't work because Win 3.0 did not close off the platform at all. There's been no precedence set on the desktop to close the platform off completely and I doubt it'd do MS any favours to do such a thing, especially when gamers will soon have Steam on Linux (which is the one thing stopping some gamers from moving from Windows to Linux).

Maascamp 14y ago
Not sure why you're being down voted, the very first sentence in the article is quite a stretching of the truth.
- keyboardP 14y ago
  The whole article came off a bit sensationalist (do people really believe there won't be any 18+ games in the future on PC?). I agree that MS could close the platform, I felt the article assumed that it already has and built it up from there. I guess people disagree with me here and do feel that it's closed :/
  - marshray 14y ago
    The point isn't whether or not there will be a PC or whether or not there will be 18+ games on it. The point is whether or not there Microsoft will be on the PC loading them. If so, how does Microsoft get from A to B? How do developers deal with the restrictions in the meantime?
    - keyboardP 14y ago
      I mentioned the 18+ games part to highlight the hyperbolic nature of the article. It assumed, based on current guidelines , that Skyrim et al. would not be allowed by MS. But that situation is quite absurd because it assumes the guidelines will never change and that MS is willing to lose money on the biggest gaming franchises. Using extremes like this doesn't support an argument. There is no actual evidence (i.e. non-hypothetical) in the article that MS plans on losing the hardcore gamer demographic on the PC. I don't see any restrictions on developers that haven't existed before. Developers can still program desktop games and avoid the store, just like they've been doing all these years. I feel there's this illusion where it's either the old, "open", Microsoft business model or the closed down Apple model. There can be a middle area where certain form factors, such as tablets, can benefit profit-wise from a closed down system (iPad, WinRT) and other form factors, like the desktop, can benefit from a dual system (ie consumers can opt for the store, or just download like normal). This notion that MS has and will fully lock down all their platforms seems unlikely to me personally.

ekyo777 14y ago

is it legal to make an installer that would explicitly add a self-signed certificate to be able to add the application? assuming there would be a way to distribute that installer other than microsoft's store

cabirum 14y ago

FUD. Desktop apps don't have to be distributed through Windows Store. In fact they can not. Windows Store contains only Metro UI apps, available for both tablets and desktops. All the software and games and stuff are installed exactly the same way as in other Windowses, without any restrictions implied by the article. Steam isn't going anywhere, Skyrim, Mass Effect are not, either. The problem does not exist.

s_tec 14y ago
The article argues that Metro apps are the future, not desktop apps. If the past is any guide to the future, desktop apps will be unacceptable to consumers in 10 years time and completely unusable in 20 years time (based on the MS-DOS to Windows transition). Steam and other apps may work fine now, but what happens in 10 years? That is the long-term issue this article is trying to bring up.
- keyboardP 14y ago
  The MS-DOS to Windows transition was more technical than business. It is not an apt analogy because Windows Next being completely closed down would be a purely business decision. If we're using 'what-if' arguments, then what if Microsoft does remove desktop in favour of Metro and then open up Metro to everyone?
- stinos 14y ago
  That's very well possible, but to some extent only. It's at least doubtfull that desktop apps like CAD/IDE software will ever ceise to exist.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Presumably Steam will either start developing to the Metro interface, or continue targeting the old desktop interface. They are hardly about to throw up their hands and say, "well we had a good run but we're done now".
- msbarnett 14y ago
  Given Microsoft's track record with Win32 replacements, it seems a little far-fetched. I'd say there's more of a risk for Metro developers that the platform will be EOL'd/legacy/forgotten in 5 years than there is a risk to traditional desktop devs.

Spearchucker 14y ago

In my opinion the only reason a closed system like Windows is still so dominant is the open nature of it's software distribution. Close that and the masses will move away. I write Windows apps purely because there are no restrictions on distribution/deployment, and because of the huge user base. When the status quo changes, I move.

pedalpete 14y ago

With one anti-trust case behind them, and a loss (packaging IE as the only browser for those to young to remember), a single access point for all software would likely raise similar flags. Apple can get away with it (or close to it) because they are still not the dominant platform. I suspect we'll get to a point where the App Store, Google Play and Microsoft Store (not sure what Microsoft's is called) will be considered monopolizing the sales channel and be decoupled forcing competition in the store space, or allowing software to be installed without going through a store at all. Thankfully we've got history on our side with installing apps from any source being the default behavior.

mark_l_watson 14y ago

What about open source software? How about applications we might write for ourselves? OS X Mountain Lion is a little fussy about apps from the Internet that did not come from the APple App Store, but it is easy enough to override this default on an app by app basis. I would hope that Microsoft would also allow users to override this restriction. e.g., installing Emacs.

hayksaakian 14y ago

We shit on Microsoft for this but with iOS it's somehow OK?

cmccabe 14y ago

Saying that closed software ecosystems are bad because they hurt games is like saying the Nazis were bad because they made it harder to find good Jewish rye bread. It's like... um... way to focus on the important stuff, Mr. Muratori.