4 ms·

Scot here. Majority of that "anti-english" racism would have been in gest, part of the banter. I've moved around several parts of Scotland and can confirm that

Scot here. Majority of that "anti-english" racism would have been in gest, part of the banter. I've moved around several parts of Scotland and can confirm that it is just part of the humour landscape. Most Scottish people have no problem with England or English people. (I understand the media's portrayal of the independence debate may sully this, but independence it about more than getting away from England 305 years later). British people could be held to the same standard in our treatment of Germany with a constant berating of WWII jokes, however we in-fact have no issue with Germany and realise it was a long time ago.

hobbes 14y ago
English guy here, living in Scotland. I personally don't take offence at the anti-English banter. But, I challenge you to engage in the same kind of banter with Asians, blacks, or homosexuals, etc, and let me know how that pans out for you. Is there a material difference, apart from the fact that English people don't take offence? In my opinion, anti-English statements don't really offend because a sense of Englishness is felt much less by an Englishman compared to how a Scot would feel his/her Scottishness. We're just not a very nationalistic buch. I do agree that most Scottish people have no problem with English folk. On a personal level, it is just "banter". The more distateful sentiments are aimed at England as a nation, as far as I have experienced.
- grey-area 14y ago
  You should be aware that exactly the same sort of banter is directed by English people at Welsh, Scots, French, Americans and practically every other nation living in England (I've experienced some of this myself as a Scot living in England), it is exactly the same in tone and intent as ribbing of English people in Scotland, and yes, sometimes it does have a nasty edge to it in any country, esp. when it is directed in a general way at an entire nation/race. Silly, and sometimes ignorant, but there we are, that's patriotism for you; the last refuge of the scoundrel, as an erudite Englishman once said - you should hear what he had to say about the benighted scots... Having lived in a few places, I'd say people everywhere like to generalise about other nations and tell themselves they know what 'those people' are like, I've done it myself a few times, and I've always been wrong when I did.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  OK, let's do why anti-white (or anti-English) sentiment isn't the same as anti-black sentiment. The issue isn't banter, it's that in some cases historical context gives "banter" overtones of something far more serious. The Scots didn't buy and sell the English as property as recently as 100 years ago (did you know Britain only abolished slavery in parts of Nigeria in 1936?), the English didn't have their behaviour outlawed in the way homosexuals have (and they still don't have equality in the UK though it's getting closer) and the English can't make any claim that given a particular level of intelligence or ability they are less likely to go to university and more likely to end up in prison the way that would be the case if they were black. Being English in Scotland offers no genuine sacrifice, disadvantage or oppression and hasn't for a long long time if ever. The same isn't true of any of the minority groups you mention. So banter is fine and if you're English in Scotland it is just banter. If you're in another minority group with a more difficult history then you need to consider that banter often hides or raises the spectre of something worse which makes it a very different thing.
  - hobbes 14y ago
    So, based on the context you have described, it is impossible for me to experience racism in Scotland under the veil of "banter". It can only be just a joke?
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      That's not what I said at all and I suspect you know it. What I'm saying is that taking what often gets said between English and Scots and drawing a parallel to how they might be seen if directed towards the minority groups you mention isn't a valid comparison. A history of discrimination can give certain remarks a very different meaning. Context is everything and centuries of oppression is quite some context and doesn't exist between the English and Scots (at least not in a way that the English can have any issue with).
      - alexholehouse 14y ago
        So does this not mean that a white person in (say) Nigeria would not be able to claim they were experiencing racism if they were targeted because of their skin colour? [I'm not, in any way trying to be inflammatory] I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'm not sure historical context gives a perfect mechanism to categorize racism or banter, but it does give a lot of weight, certainly.

hobbes 14y ago

English guy here, living in Scotland. I personally don't take offence at the anti-English banter. But, I challenge you to engage in the same kind of banter with Asians, blacks, or homosexuals, etc, and let me know how that pans out for you. Is there a material difference, apart from the fact that English people don't take offence? In my opinion, anti-English statements don't really offend because a sense of Englishness is felt much less by an Englishman compared to how a Scot would feel his/her Scottishness. We're just not a very nationalistic buch. I do agree that most Scottish people have no problem with English folk. On a personal level, it is just "banter". The more distateful sentiments are aimed at England as a nation, as far as I have experienced.

grey-area 14y ago
You should be aware that exactly the same sort of banter is directed by English people at Welsh, Scots, French, Americans and practically every other nation living in England (I've experienced some of this myself as a Scot living in England), it is exactly the same in tone and intent as ribbing of English people in Scotland, and yes, sometimes it does have a nasty edge to it in any country, esp. when it is directed in a general way at an entire nation/race. Silly, and sometimes ignorant, but there we are, that's patriotism for you; the last refuge of the scoundrel, as an erudite Englishman once said - you should hear what he had to say about the benighted scots... Having lived in a few places, I'd say people everywhere like to generalise about other nations and tell themselves they know what 'those people' are like, I've done it myself a few times, and I've always been wrong when I did.
Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
OK, let's do why anti-white (or anti-English) sentiment isn't the same as anti-black sentiment. The issue isn't banter, it's that in some cases historical context gives "banter" overtones of something far more serious. The Scots didn't buy and sell the English as property as recently as 100 years ago (did you know Britain only abolished slavery in parts of Nigeria in 1936?), the English didn't have their behaviour outlawed in the way homosexuals have (and they still don't have equality in the UK though it's getting closer) and the English can't make any claim that given a particular level of intelligence or ability they are less likely to go to university and more likely to end up in prison the way that would be the case if they were black. Being English in Scotland offers no genuine sacrifice, disadvantage or oppression and hasn't for a long long time if ever. The same isn't true of any of the minority groups you mention. So banter is fine and if you're English in Scotland it is just banter. If you're in another minority group with a more difficult history then you need to consider that banter often hides or raises the spectre of something worse which makes it a very different thing.
- hobbes 14y ago
  So, based on the context you have described, it is impossible for me to experience racism in Scotland under the veil of "banter". It can only be just a joke?
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    That's not what I said at all and I suspect you know it. What I'm saying is that taking what often gets said between English and Scots and drawing a parallel to how they might be seen if directed towards the minority groups you mention isn't a valid comparison. A history of discrimination can give certain remarks a very different meaning. Context is everything and centuries of oppression is quite some context and doesn't exist between the English and Scots (at least not in a way that the English can have any issue with).
    - alexholehouse 14y ago
      So does this not mean that a white person in (say) Nigeria would not be able to claim they were experiencing racism if they were targeted because of their skin colour? [I'm not, in any way trying to be inflammatory] I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'm not sure historical context gives a perfect mechanism to categorize racism or banter, but it does give a lot of weight, certainly.