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Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in th

• PinguTS 9mo ago
  Funfact: If you are working in the industry, you know that there are many companies who produce electronics in Europe in general and some even in Germany. Bosch, Continental, Siemens, Palfinger, FAUN, Webasto, Phoenix Contact, Beckhoff, …
  • crote 9mo ago
    The problem is the gap between hobbyist project and hundred-thousand-unit production run. You can't easily and cheaply get 10, 100, or 1000 units manufactured in the EU the way you can in China. This pretty much kills hardware startups and scaleups wanting to do local manufacturing. If you're not a multinational or have an essentially-unlimited budget for your small-scale run, you have to outsource it to China.
    • PinguTS 9mo ago
      I work with companies, which have a more like small scale production. They are about 100 or so workers. Yes, this is also possible. They grew their business in the last 25 years, when it was even harder to produce something than these days. At least one of these business have PCB suppliers in the EU, which helped them in the post COVID crises where everybody struggled with supply. I just named some big name brands. I also know mid-size and smaller brands. Building your business and getting your stuff together is hard for any startup in any business field.
      • gmueckl 9mo ago
        I can second that there are relatively small electronics manufacturers in Germany. I know a few myself, although I'm not working in that field.
        • Slartie 9mo ago
          I can third this observation. I've even had my flat above one of these for 10 years. Small company, privately-owned, five employees or so. They have a few pick-and-place machines (SIMATICs as far as I have seen) located in a small factory building and manufacture small production runs with them. They don't have a real website advertising their services, but they seem to do well, probably their customers know them. They've run their business continuously for at least those 10 years I've lived at that spot. I could smell the soldering oven running constantly.
          • abielefeld 9mo ago
            For an example with a website, see Waterott, it's run by one person who has a single Siplace SMT machine and stencils manually, and he has no issues earning money.
      • crote 9mo ago
        Could you perhaps share those PCBA businesses with us? I tried quite hard to find them when I was still in the hardware world, and I never managed to find anything even remotely close to what China offers at less than 10x the price. I'd love to give it another shot for some hobby projects if the industry has indeed changed in the last few years!
        • PinguTS 9mo ago
          I can't share the name. I don't know their prices. I know that they are in Eastern Europe. From my knowledge, the last time (2022ish) we talked about that was, that they don't take new customers for now. They are working at capacity.
        • fock 9mo ago
    • monegator 9mo ago
      Disagree. The main reason we use chinese fabs is because we can actually get the goods in less than three weeks, so if we have a surge in sales we are covered pretty quickly. The other reason is that we do some low complexity boards all specified with chinese parts, JLCPCB for the win, and our contractor agrees with us. They are not interested in those jobs because they can't possibly compete. However, for our batch size/complexity our local contractor beats the chinese, by a good margin, and they keep growing the business. In Italy. The only problem we have with them is lead time, because there is always some hiccup, some missing part, some email that gets answered a day too late. I've been asking them for years to just provide their catalog with their partnumbers so i can just specify them in the BOM, and we won't waste all that time back and forth, but it's never been a true priority, but they do need to streamline the process. All european manufacturers need to streamline their process. Another comment here lamented that the issue is that the fabs may try to treat every board as unique, whereas is should be us designers that adapt to them. I agree. That's a general issue in our attitude to designing a product, in many areas.
      • abielefeld 9mo ago
        Yes, it's all about fast turnaround without pain. Manufacturers in china just do it fast, and avoid all the pains, they actually care about customer experience above all, something we have to learn from ourselves obviously! As I said in another comment, I fully expect things to change for the better: Some manufacturers will go out of business, but yet others will turn around in time. All these people that were laid off will find jobs again, revitalizing moribund companies. Some will create their own companies, I view myself as part of this group.
  • consp 9mo ago
    I'd add Infineon to that list, formerly Siemens.
  • friendzis 9mo ago
    As far as I am aware the European plants survive mostly on decent QA and regulated industries. When the cost of a defect slipping QA is high, it can be cheaper to operate European plant with intra-step quality controls than manufacture in China and slap thorough QA on top.
  • sandos 9mo ago
    Hitachi Energy as well, afaik anyway.
  • f1shy 9mo ago
    Fun fact: some of those companies are shutting down productions sites as we read this forum...
    • joe_mamba 9mo ago
      I feel like HN posters simply know the names of these companies because they're big, but don't actually work at those companies, otherwise they would know about the massive waves of layoffs and offshoring happening there lately.
      • PinguTS 9mo ago
        I feel like some HN posters simply read news and don't work in the industry and have actual insights on what's happening. Like Hydac moved some of there assembly from China to Germany. A company in the district nearby, just moved their whole production from Thailand back to here. Yes, production costs are higher. But there is not transportation costs. They don't have long lead times anymore and can react more better to demand. So the overall costs assessment lead to the decision it is better to have production here locally. I recommend to go to SPS, Agritechnica, and so and talk to actual people. BTW: Even as Continental has layoff. There are other companies around that happily absorb those people. Because 2 years back, that had problems employing people.
        • joe_mamba 9mo ago
          >that had problems employing people Who is "that" in this context? Can you be more specific. >Even as Continental has layoff Not just Conti, but all major automotive suppliers, semiconductor, embedded companies spread across Europe had mass layoffs. And not everyone was quickly absorbed. I have EE friends almost a year unemployed after the layoffs. They apply but only get rejections, not sure why. It's a bloodbath right now in industries in high-CoL regions.
          • f1shy 9mo ago
            And is not only automotive. Other sectors are also suffering a lot. As you said, finding a new job is not very easy, even if you are ok with 1hs commute. As far as I know, all big companies are moving work outside the EU in a hurry.
• crote 9mo ago
  The regulations argument is a red herring: those mostly apply to electronics products sold in the EU, not manufactured in the EU. You have exactly the same burden trying to sell CN-manufactured hardware in the EU. Worker's shortage is a real problem in China as well. Their approach? Automate everything. Focus on manufacturing 1000s of designs using a handful of standard formulas, instead of treating every design as bespoke. There's no reason this couldn't be done in the EU. It's going to require a serious cultural shift, but given the right incentive I see no reason why it would be impossible.
  • pjc50 9mo ago
    > You have exactly the same burden trying to sell CN-manufactured hardware in the EU. Not if you're a Chinese OEM: you just mail it in, and thanks to the arcane operation of international postage it's cheaper to post to Germany from China than from Germany. CE is such a European type of regulation, there's almost no enforcement, while at the same time it's so vague that simply working out what directives you might need to comply with is time-consuming. Mind you as others have pointed out, there is still EU electronics. It's just not massive production runs for consumer electronics, much more of it is for defence, aerospace, and medical. And a bit of automotive, although that is definitely going to fall to Chinese car OEMs.
    • crote 9mo ago
      Europe is starting crack down on individual CN import - for exactly this reason. But that's still not going to solve the real problems EU-based hardware companies run into. The whole problem is that the EU electronics industy is laser-focused on those defence and aerospace runs. They expect everything to be bespoke and complicated, so their entire business model is built around it. But the vast majority of hardware isn't that complicated. I don't want a two-month ordering process with a "call for pricing" and a €1500 "engineering fee" - I want a JLCPCB-like instant quote and click-to-order for my dime-a-dozen 4-layer 10x10cm prototype! The fact that a handful of industy giant are still doing production in Europe while moving at a glacial pace is not that relevant when China is rapidly out-innovating the West. If it continues like this, they will eventually die too.
• Joel_Mckay 9mo ago
  Not sure why your post was buried. As the EU does have a lot of rules, but if a product is reasonably made its almost the same cost as the US market entry. Robert Feranec covers a lot of the more obscure EU rules: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTPb7etzOmA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTPb7etzOmA Designs that contain China parts are often immediately disqualified from most trade exemptions. The landed cost can bump gadget retail prices too high in some countries. YMMV =3
• throwaway132448 9mo ago
  You sound like you're stuck in a rut. I don't see any of this.
  • joe_mamba 9mo ago
    Where do you live/work that you don't see any of this? I heard Poland is doing amazing right now, but where I live half my friend group including me has been through layoffs in the past 2-3 years and every day when I open the news, large companies in my country are announcing layoffs or hiring freezes, and small to medium sized ones are announcing insolvencies.
• rcxdude 9mo ago
  Really? Most of the electronics I work on get made in the EU. There are a few decent options, even. It's not dead, even if China is much bigger.
• bratwurst3000 9mo ago
  i was looking it up and the 12th biggest pcb manufacture is in austria. which is europa afaik. Its not that dead "In Leoben befindet sich das weltweite Headquarter von AT&S. Derzeit gibt es drei Produktionslinien, die eine Reihe von verschiedenen ML/HDI Highend-Leiterplatten, Embedded Lösungen für Power Applikationen vor allem im Server Bereich und Cores für die IC-Substratwerke herstellen. Weiteres werden spezielle Technologien für Aviation & Satellites, Industrie, Automotive und den IC-Markt entwickelt und gefertigt. Mitarbeiter: 1.759 Eröffnung: 1982 Fokus: Automotive, Aviation, Industrial, Medical, Communication, Consumer, Computer, Semicon Ein neues Werk, das derzeit gebaut wird, wird auch die Produktion von IC-Substraten nach Leoben bringen, einschließlich bedeutsamer Kapazitäten für Forschung und Entwicklung. Mit dem neuen Werk werden rund 700 neue Arbeitsplätze geschaffen, wodurch sich die Zahl der Mitarbeiter:innen nahezu verdoppeln wird. Fabriksgasse 13, 8700 Leoben, Österreich" https://ats.net/ https://ats.net/
• nebula8804 9mo ago
  >Who wants to be manufacturing technician when you can be lifestyle influencer!? Before influencers people wanted to be actors. It predates the time before Electronics was 'lost' in Europe so thats not a convincing argument. What you are saying really is that the world enjoys what we have on the backs of inadequately paid production engineers in China. As their demographic crisis does not produce a similar sized replacement generation, that benefit will go away as experts retire and no one replaces them. So one way or another wages will go up meaning inflation will go up and some of those 'lifestyle influencers' will now consider the field because it is a viable career path in terms of pay.
  • abielefeld 9mo ago
    What is really interesting is that worker pay in tier 1 cities in China (e.g. Shenzen) actually is higher than in EU countries such as Slovenia, Bulgaria or Czech republic. Incidentally these countries have a large number of EMS, and we know of quite a few startups that quickly grew production capability to be able to provide electronics assembly.
  • rangestransform 9mo ago
    Kids in china also want to be lifestyle influencers instead of manufacturing technicians
    • nebula8804 9mo ago
      Yeah I didn't say that Chinese people didn't want to go down the same route, infact lifestyle influencers have a better shot there (probably 0.1% better). There is so much overproduction of engineers that you are possibly working a customer support role with that degree. Another reason SASS supposedly never took off there, why pay some company when you can just hire from the batch of overproduced STEM graduates and make any software you need. When I can have an experienced engineer correct my garbage designs for free as part of a manufacturing service you know I am benefiting off of a lucky circumstance that will go away one day: https://youtu.be/ljOoGyCso8s?t=98 https://youtu.be/ljOoGyCso8s?t=98
• abielefeld 9mo ago
  Hi, Augustin here, one of the presenters. As other commenters pointed out, the electronics industry is quite big in Europe, on paper it generates a lot of money and sustains a lot of jobs. The issue is a bit more complex, and you point it out when you say people around you are old and old-fashioned. Like I said in the talk: We used to laugh at the chinese products for how low quality they were 20 years ago, who's laughing now? I don't believe europeans are unable to turn around this situation in as many years as a matter of fact, it's my core beliefs: That together with other young motivated people we'll build our own little electronics industry for ourselves, among ourselves and people who believe we can one day have theye crazy future factories in Europe. Yes it's crazy hard, but like you I believe things will get sufficiently bad that more will see that the effort is worth it. You should check out the 39c3 talk from Kliment, he understands this issue so well, and I'll paraphrase him here: Electronics is dominated by old dudes, the industry is hostile to newcomers, self-taught people, women, and more. But by making an effort to give people who are starting a good experience, we can turn this around. Honestly there is no worker shortage, in my immediate contacts, I already know 2 or 3 people who are ready to work my production line: They have the smarts, skills, and time. They are unemployed because no one would respect them, and give them a meaningful mission like we would, and it's quite clear this is quite a widespread feeling among people.
  • joe_mamba 9mo ago
    >I don't believe europeans are unable to turn around this situation in as many years as a matter of fact, it's my core beliefs Actually, I DO believe we are unable to turn it around. I've done EE work both in Europe and in China for over a span of 10 years, and what sets China apart from Europe that enabled them to overtake us is the mindset, both at government support level AND at individual level. Chinese operated a lot closer in mentality of the US compared to Europeans, as in very cutthroat move fast and break things, wanting to ship a new product every 6 months(!). This mentality is lacking in Europe who mostly stick to slow paced industries where there's a national security, regulatory or bureaucratic moat like aerospace, defense, telco, industrial automation or automotive, but nothing cutting edge in consumer space that's dominated by China, Korea, Japan and US. Then there's the massive investments and support from the Chinese state that's missing in European electronics industry. To get an idea compare to the massive sums Europe invests in pharma(or life sciences) versus pitiful investments in electronics for example, and you'll get what I mean. Until those change, we have no chance, we're just dreaming and huffing copium that somehow things will magically improve out of the blue. >the industry is hostile to newcomers, self-taught people, women, and more. Pretty much this, minus the hostility towards women part. I've had few women colleagues everywhere I worked in EE, there's no gender hostility or discrimination, just that young girls looking for a career, aren't really into sitting hunched down over a table and soldering and probing PCB's in a lab somewhere in a techo-park in the outskirts of town as a career, when stuff like HR, marketing, brand design in the city center, is way more hip and appealing to young urbanites. You can't force people to be attracted to a specific industry or line of work. Similarly how there's not much women in construction, welding, oil industry, fire fighters, LEO, etc and it's also not due to hostility, or how there's not too many men in nursing, HR or childcare. > They are unemployed because no one would respect them, and give them a meaningful mission like we would I hope you realize, you're not really selling the European electronics industry optimism here with this example of skilled people being passed on for employment.
• physarum_salad 9mo ago
  To be more specific: PCB manufacture anywhere other than China is, given the current economics, so dead. This includes the USA. The only viable alternative is SE asian countries (e.g. Malaysia) but that's not at a comparable scale. The reason is simply economics (e.g. labour costs, equipment, etc).