4 ms·

I'm using Linux on the desktop for 15 years and I still sometimes cannot connect to Wifi. This is because the list of network refreshes (and disappears) before

by nh2 9mo ago

I'm using Linux on the desktop for 15 years and I still sometimes cannot connect to Wifi. This is because the list of network refreshes (and disappears) before I can find and click the correct Wifi: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/issues/160 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/issu... This completely breaks the Linux experience for anybody living in a reasonably populous area. The issue has 3 upvotes. I also put a 400 $ bounty on it, if anybody wants to give it a shot. (Given that AI is supposed to replace 90% of programmers last year, making the Wifi list stay visible should be easy, right?) This worked fine 10 years ago. Most of my gripes are around some UI garbage behaviour like that. I have a file manager on one PC (I think it's the Ubuntu one where some "GUI in Snap" stuff breaks the GUI) breaks the file picker dialogue, so that when pasting a directory path in to navigate there, at the exact instant you press Enter, it autocompletes the first file so that that gets selected, leading you to upload a file you didn't want to upload. That said, all of that feels like really high quality compared to when once per year I click the Wifi menu on some Windows and it take 20 seconds to appear at all.

forgotaccount22 9mo ago
PR on the way
- forgotaccount22 9mo ago
  PR created https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/merge_requests/169 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/merg...
  - nh2 9mo ago
    Excellent, I will try it straight away. I'll pay out 75% if it works (as it fixes my immediate problem), and the remaining 25% if it gets merged. I'll email you after my test. I think one possible complaint you might get in the review is that when refreshing is fully disabled in the menu, people won't see new networks come up (e.g. when they had just enabled Wifi, or unsuspended). Maybe a good solution would be to to have one unclickable menu entry pop up labelled e.g. "Networks changed, re-open this menu" to solve that. Probably in nm-applet's main context menu of which the list is a child, instead of in the list itself, so that its appearance doesn't move around the networks on which the user is currently intending to click.
    - forgotaccount22 9mo ago
      It only stops refreshing if you are hovering the actual SSID list items which in my opinion is the cleanest way to do it, if you want new data you can reclick/rehover the "available networks". The Other option is putting the refresh on a global timer, but that would add magic which isn't clear to the user. Thanks, I will be awaiting your test result!
      - nh2 9mo ago
        I agree that logic is sound, but it is also not discoverable to the user: They might open the list (with the cursor resting on one of the items, or use the keyboard to navigate out of comfort or for accessibility reasons), then notice "oh wait, I haven't actually enabled my phone's Wifi hotspot yet", enable that, and wait forever for it to appear. That's why I'm thinking something should visually (and non-visually) change so the user can notice. Maybe even cleaner would be to add a tooltip to the currently-hovered entry? That might work for both mouse and non-mouse use cases, and might even work for screenreaders.
        huflungdung 9mo ago
        Make it so the list refreshes (shows new entires) every N seconds when it is focused. Easy.
        amatecha 9mo ago
        Yeah I think this is what OS X does (or used to do), you open the menu and it does its initial refresh, and only after quite some delay of the menu being open, it refreshes again. Easy enough to choose your network in that large amount of time. I may be missing some subtle details of it though, since I haven't used it in a while >_>
        nh2 9mo ago
        This can still make that just as you click, it adds entries and makes you click the wrong entry (accidental clickjacking).
- VertanaNinjai 9mo ago
  Well, huge shoutout to you for following up on your word! https://gitlab.gnome.org/rickyb/network-manager-applet/-/commit/8b15b90abd0aeb194dcac5c4ad10a2c711a0d053 https://gitlab.gnome.org/rickyb/network-manager-applet/-/com...
  - forgotaccount22 9mo ago
    Ashamed to admit that the power of monetary motivation got the best of me here. But it was also nice to apply myself.
    - nh2 9mo ago
      Update: The PR was merged upstream and I'll pay out the full bounty. Thank you very much! Now Linux is a good amount better on the desktop.
herczegzsolt 9mo ago
If you are sensitive to these issues, unfortunately you need to go with a mainstream linux distribution and use near-default settings. It's great that you can customize everything and use your own window manager, compositor, etc ... but these issues are the price you pay. It is unfair to compare this to Windows, where you don't even have these customization options. Specifically for the network manager applet, it is not fixed because it's not really used anymore. GNOME Shell has it's own network selection menu that does not use the applet. It is the default on most systems, so users don't face this issue by default.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- rickdg 9mo ago
  I use ubuntu and the default remote desktop just stopped working since 24: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/rdp-stopped-working-after-upgrade-from-22-to-24/51559/2 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/rdp-stopped-working-after-upg... With Linux, you just have to be prepared to hit a bug and find no help coming anytime.
  - Xfx7028 9mo ago
    >>With Linux, you just have to be prepared to hit a bug and find no help coming anytime. Mate there are bugs in windows and macos that have been unfixed for years. This is not a good argument in my opinion.
    - mvkel 9mo ago
      I think the difference (at least with macOS) is the fundamental things that -were- working don't suddenly break* *macOS26 excepted
  - nh2 9mo ago
    > find no help coming anytime Well, see sibling thread: Looks like you just need to post your bounty in HN and somebody will do within a few hours. Somebody to that for Windows or macos. Sometimes I feel the bounty topic isn't well served yet. On the GNOME bug tracker it doesn't seem to be very discoverable. Are there current good platforms to advertise bounties where people actually look?
mixmastamyk 9mo ago
I've been recommending Mint/Cinnamon over Ubuntu for years now. Its wifi widget does not do this, nor does it use snap.
- hexbin010 9mo ago
  Mint is really polished
- mft_ 9mo ago
  I jumped on the Linux bandwagon with my main work laptop last week, when my perfectly fine (I thought) Windows 11 installation nuked itself without warning (possibly related to merely opening Teams). I somewhat randomly chose Mint, and a few oddities aside; it’s been a pretty good experience.
- zekrioca 9mo ago
  I was really surprised with how well polished Mint is. Everything worked out of the box very snappy.
  - shimman 9mo ago
    Mint is my preferred OS for my homelab. Nice to have a decent GUI to plug into when using a KVM switch.
hexbin010 9mo ago
Also the latest KDE UI that inserts a tiny password input box below the SSID when you click the SSID, and doesn't scroll it into view, so you're left wondering what's going on Really really bad WiFi connection UI all over
llmslave3 9mo ago
Last time I tried Linux I was so done with Windows I installed Arch. Couldn't connect to Wifi. I figured it was Arch, so I installed Ubuntu. Literally the same problem. So I got a new USB wifi adaptor that said it supported Linux...same problem. I gave up and have been using a MacBook ever since lol.
- lpcvoid 9mo ago
  Perhaps you could have checked if the firmware was installed? Most distros have non free firmware in their packages, it just needs to be installed.
  - llmslave3 9mo ago
    I tried everything lol.
  - mft_ 9mo ago
    Or maybe the operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics? Or if it can’t, at least give an indication why? Blaming a new user like this is one of the cultural reasons why the ‘year of the Linux desktop’ has always been n+1.
    - cromka 9mo ago
      You can't just come to Linux and forget about the distinction between free and proprietary software.
    - conz 9mo ago
      Re: "Or maybe the operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics?" So, out of curiosity, if I tried installing MacOS on any of the 15+ computers I have at home, what are the likely chances that this "operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics?" I can tell you that my success rate with Linux is 100%.
      - _yc_is_evil_ 9mo ago
ThePowerOfFuet 9mo ago
That sounds like a GNOME problem, not a Linux problem. You should give KDE a go.
coppsilgold 9mo ago
It takes skill to make a GUI that integrates dynamic information a good UX. For things like WiFi I discovered that modifying config files is an infinitely better experience than any GUI on Linux. Also for some reason DE's sometimes fail to automatically connect to an AP when it's right there and I have to click for them to do it. This issue literally never happened to me when just using wpa_supplicant, for years whenever an AP is operational then so is the connection without fail.
AviationAtom 9mo ago
Have you tried KDE Plasma? I have loved it since coming from GNOME. Install it atop Debian 13 and everything just works.
ckbkr10 9mo ago
congratz to receiving the fix

by nh2 9mo ago

forgotaccount22 9mo ago

PR on the way

forgotaccount22 9mo ago
PR created https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/merge_requests/169 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/network-manager-applet/-/merg...
- nh2 9mo ago
  Excellent, I will try it straight away. I'll pay out 75% if it works (as it fixes my immediate problem), and the remaining 25% if it gets merged. I'll email you after my test. I think one possible complaint you might get in the review is that when refreshing is fully disabled in the menu, people won't see new networks come up (e.g. when they had just enabled Wifi, or unsuspended). Maybe a good solution would be to to have one unclickable menu entry pop up labelled e.g. "Networks changed, re-open this menu" to solve that. Probably in nm-applet's main context menu of which the list is a child, instead of in the list itself, so that its appearance doesn't move around the networks on which the user is currently intending to click.
  - forgotaccount22 9mo ago
    It only stops refreshing if you are hovering the actual SSID list items which in my opinion is the cleanest way to do it, if you want new data you can reclick/rehover the "available networks". The Other option is putting the refresh on a global timer, but that would add magic which isn't clear to the user. Thanks, I will be awaiting your test result!
    - nh2 9mo ago
      I agree that logic is sound, but it is also not discoverable to the user: They might open the list (with the cursor resting on one of the items, or use the keyboard to navigate out of comfort or for accessibility reasons), then notice "oh wait, I haven't actually enabled my phone's Wifi hotspot yet", enable that, and wait forever for it to appear. That's why I'm thinking something should visually (and non-visually) change so the user can notice. Maybe even cleaner would be to add a tooltip to the currently-hovered entry? That might work for both mouse and non-mouse use cases, and might even work for screenreaders.
      - huflungdung 9mo ago
        Make it so the list refreshes (shows new entires) every N seconds when it is focused. Easy.
        amatecha 9mo ago
        Yeah I think this is what OS X does (or used to do), you open the menu and it does its initial refresh, and only after quite some delay of the menu being open, it refreshes again. Easy enough to choose your network in that large amount of time. I may be missing some subtle details of it though, since I haven't used it in a while >_>
        nh2 9mo ago
        This can still make that just as you click, it adds entries and makes you click the wrong entry (accidental clickjacking).
VertanaNinjai 9mo ago
Well, huge shoutout to you for following up on your word! https://gitlab.gnome.org/rickyb/network-manager-applet/-/commit/8b15b90abd0aeb194dcac5c4ad10a2c711a0d053 https://gitlab.gnome.org/rickyb/network-manager-applet/-/com...
- forgotaccount22 9mo ago
  Ashamed to admit that the power of monetary motivation got the best of me here. But it was also nice to apply myself.
  - nh2 9mo ago
    Update: The PR was merged upstream and I'll pay out the full bounty. Thank you very much! Now Linux is a good amount better on the desktop.

herczegzsolt 9mo ago

If you are sensitive to these issues, unfortunately you need to go with a mainstream linux distribution and use near-default settings. It's great that you can customize everything and use your own window manager, compositor, etc ... but these issues are the price you pay. It is unfair to compare this to Windows, where you don't even have these customization options. Specifically for the network manager applet, it is not fixed because it's not really used anymore. GNOME Shell has it's own network selection menu that does not use the applet. It is the default on most systems, so users don't face this issue by default.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
rickdg 9mo ago
I use ubuntu and the default remote desktop just stopped working since 24: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/rdp-stopped-working-after-upgrade-from-22-to-24/51559/2 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/rdp-stopped-working-after-upg... With Linux, you just have to be prepared to hit a bug and find no help coming anytime.
- Xfx7028 9mo ago
  >>With Linux, you just have to be prepared to hit a bug and find no help coming anytime. Mate there are bugs in windows and macos that have been unfixed for years. This is not a good argument in my opinion.
  - mvkel 9mo ago
    I think the difference (at least with macOS) is the fundamental things that -were- working don't suddenly break* *macOS26 excepted
- nh2 9mo ago
  > find no help coming anytime Well, see sibling thread: Looks like you just need to post your bounty in HN and somebody will do within a few hours. Somebody to that for Windows or macos. Sometimes I feel the bounty topic isn't well served yet. On the GNOME bug tracker it doesn't seem to be very discoverable. Are there current good platforms to advertise bounties where people actually look?

mixmastamyk 9mo ago

I've been recommending Mint/Cinnamon over Ubuntu for years now. Its wifi widget does not do this, nor does it use snap.

hexbin010 9mo ago
Mint is really polished
mft_ 9mo ago
I jumped on the Linux bandwagon with my main work laptop last week, when my perfectly fine (I thought) Windows 11 installation nuked itself without warning (possibly related to merely opening Teams). I somewhat randomly chose Mint, and a few oddities aside; it’s been a pretty good experience.
zekrioca 9mo ago
I was really surprised with how well polished Mint is. Everything worked out of the box very snappy.
- shimman 9mo ago
  Mint is my preferred OS for my homelab. Nice to have a decent GUI to plug into when using a KVM switch.

hexbin010 9mo ago

Also the latest KDE UI that inserts a tiny password input box below the SSID when you click the SSID, and doesn't scroll it into view, so you're left wondering what's going on Really really bad WiFi connection UI all over

llmslave3 9mo ago

Last time I tried Linux I was so done with Windows I installed Arch. Couldn't connect to Wifi. I figured it was Arch, so I installed Ubuntu. Literally the same problem. So I got a new USB wifi adaptor that said it supported Linux...same problem. I gave up and have been using a MacBook ever since lol.

lpcvoid 9mo ago
Perhaps you could have checked if the firmware was installed? Most distros have non free firmware in their packages, it just needs to be installed.
- llmslave3 9mo ago
  I tried everything lol.
- mft_ 9mo ago
  Or maybe the operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics? Or if it can’t, at least give an indication why? Blaming a new user like this is one of the cultural reasons why the ‘year of the Linux desktop’ has always been n+1.
  - cromka 9mo ago
    You can't just come to Linux and forget about the distinction between free and proprietary software.
  - conz 9mo ago
    Re: "Or maybe the operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics?" So, out of curiosity, if I tried installing MacOS on any of the 15+ computers I have at home, what are the likely chances that this "operating system should just work reliably for (at least) the basics?" I can tell you that my success rate with Linux is 100%.
    - _yc_is_evil_ 9mo ago

ThePowerOfFuet 9mo ago

That sounds like a GNOME problem, not a Linux problem. You should give KDE a go.

coppsilgold 9mo ago

It takes skill to make a GUI that integrates dynamic information a good UX. For things like WiFi I discovered that modifying config files is an infinitely better experience than any GUI on Linux. Also for some reason DE's sometimes fail to automatically connect to an AP when it's right there and I have to click for them to do it. This issue literally never happened to me when just using wpa_supplicant, for years whenever an AP is operational then so is the connection without fail.

AviationAtom 9mo ago

Have you tried KDE Plasma? I have loved it since coming from GNOME. Install it atop Debian 13 and everything just works.

ckbkr10 9mo ago

congratz to receiving the fix