7 ms·

73% People Detained by ICE Have No Convictions

86 points by gtirloni 9mo ago

obikatsu 9mo ago
Alternate headlines you could have posted... 27% People Detained by ICE Have Convictions 5% of People Detained By ICE Have Violent Convictions
- kgwxd 9mo ago
  Alternate comments you could have posted...
  - throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
    95% of americans rejoice at the strong +4.3% GDP.
piker 9mo ago
> No conviction or charge 29,075 47% I mean, I'm not exactly pro-ICE here, but if 53% of them have a conviction or charge, that does tell a different story. That's surprisingly high.
- sosodev 9mo ago
  The data does not say that 53% have a conviction or charge. It says that 27% do. The 26% you miscategorized are people with pending charges. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - piker 9mo ago
    What you’re saying makes no sense. Unless I'm misunderstanding it (and I am in fact a lawyer), the data indicates that 53% of the people have either been convicted of or charged with a crime. Yes, people who are charged are innocent until proven guilty. Nobody is implying any of those charged people are guilty. Fifty-three is a high percentage of any population to face criminal charges, innocent or guilty. That’s it. What do you think is the delta between "charged" and "pending charge"?
    - HaZeust 9mo ago
      What do you think the delta is between "general population", "pending charge", "charged", and "convicted" - while we're at it? You can make a vast majority of the population "pending charge" at some point if you take into consideration they were - at one point - marked "pending bench warrant" during the time between getting a traffic ticket and (A) paying it; or (B) fighting it. Let's see how far we can skew the datasets, with enough motivation. And the "benefit of the doubt" that you'd reflexively give someone on not stretching the truth simply CANNOT be afforded to these people.
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - piker 9mo ago
        No this isn’t correct. A bench warrant is not a charge. Neither is an arrest warrant, but in any event most traffic violations will be civil and not criminal matters.
        HaZeust 9mo ago
        >"A bench warrant is not a charge. Neither is an arrest warrant," Re-read my comment. I never said they were.
        piker 9mo ago
        > You can make a vast majority of the population "pending charge" at some point if you take into consideration they were - at one point - marked "pending bench warrant" during the time between getting a traffic ticket and (A) paying it; or (B) fighting it. This statement is incorrect. A "charge" means charged with a crime. You cannot make anyone "pending charge" if you issue them a bench warrant. Nor an arrest warrant. Charging someone is a different procedure.
mr_00ff00 9mo ago
A common agreement I hear is “illegals/criminals shouldn’t get a trial” as if the point of trials isn’t to figure who is and isn’t genuinely those things.
sergiotapia 9mo ago
27% People Detained by ICE Have Convictions 5% of People Detained By ICE Have Violent Convictions That's a crazy amount of people. ICE needs to do better.
- kgwxd 9mo ago
  This comment looks familiar.
flatpepsi17 9mo ago
Semantic games. ICE isn't going after people who have already been convicted of other offenses. They are going after illegal immigrants. Hence the name ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
- eightysixfour 9mo ago
  They specifically call out why the semantics matter in the actual article, in the first paragraph. > President Donald Trump premised his mass deportation agenda on the idea that he will be “returning millions and millions of criminal aliens.” Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Kristi Noem has repeatedly claimed that they are arresting the “worst of the worst.” When speaking to Trump supporting friends who employ illegal immigrants they specifically defend that it is only the "bad ones."
  - Sohcahtoa82 9mo ago
    > When speaking to Trump supporting friends who employ illegal immigrants they specifically defend that it is only the "bad ones." They still feel this way because their news sources don't tell them about restaurants being raided and the entire kitchen being arrested or ICE raids on agriculture. Problems aren't problems until it happens to them.
    - flatpepsi17 9mo ago
      Yes- that's a big problem. The business owners are getting away with massive employment fraud, tax fraud, and any number of OSHA/employee law violations. They need to be arrested and brought to trial. If you can't run a business without breaking the law (including illegal labor), then that business shouldn't exist.
      - eightysixfour 9mo ago
        I agree, however the law must be applied uniformly and consistently for an even playing field. It is not, which allows the government to “pick” winners and losers via selective prosecution. The whole situation has been bungled so badly.
languagehacker 9mo ago
When the Cato institute publishes something like this it's all over. These guys used to be considered incredibly conservative. For them to submit something so level-headed and factual which goes counter to a Republican-led administration's politices indicates that the current government is being run not by folks engaging in good faith with our existing political institutions, but with radicals intent on twisting those institutions for their own agenda. Please remember that 23% of those with no conviction but pending charges should be considered innocent until proven guilty. If you get hit with a traffic stop, you shouldn't be lumped in with violent offenders. That's not how our justice system works.
- rapsey 9mo ago
  Obama deported way more than Trump does and no one complained. Why is that so? Or at least the complaints were not nearly on the level they are now. The actual anomaly is the Biden era.
  - SoftTalker 9mo ago
    I'd like to know of any countries where a foreigner can be there without a valid visa/authorization and not be summarily deported if they are discovered.
    - riedel 9mo ago
      In Germany we have a thing called tolleration [0]. It actually covers quite a few people, because quite a few people seek asylum because legal immigrantion is often dysfunctional. The difference maybe is that it is difficult in Germany to be employed or take part in life without any formal registration. Deportation is often difficult because it needs to be safe and the country of origin has to cooperate. Because Germany only has EU borders, pushing people beyond its border is pretty pointless once they have settled (they typically return within a few days). But we also have over night deportations of families (children having grown up in Germany, people having jobs) with police raids in some cases, that leave people traumatized. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29
paulcole 9mo ago
Isn't it kind of logical that if you knew that if you got on the radar of the authorities that you'd be deported, that you'd do your best to avoid committing any crime (even a minor one)? And even if that's totally illogical, doesn't it make sense that most people aren't convicted criminals, even those who immigrated here illegally? This seems roughly in line with the US population in general? https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal-justice/criminal-records-and-reentry-toolkit https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal-justice/criminal-rec...
- gtirloni 9mo ago
  The narrative this administration is pushing is that immigratns are terrorists and rapists.
  - paulcole 9mo ago
    Did you mean to reply to me or someone else?
Sohcahtoa82 9mo ago
Why is this post flagged?
- tartoran 9mo ago
  Simple, somebody wants you not to know these facts.
tsoukase 9mo ago
A country that is almost entirely consisted of at most five generations of immigrants is cracking down on foreigners. In some levels the US is not yet a mature country and they don't have the historical experience as other parts of the world.
JohnTHaller 9mo ago
Link for when flagged: https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convictions-73-no-convictions https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi...

86 points by gtirloni 9mo ago

Alternate headlines you could have posted... 27% People Detained by ICE Have Convictions 5% of People Detained By ICE Have Violent Convictions

kgwxd 9mo ago
Alternate comments you could have posted...
- throwawayqqq11 9mo ago
  95% of americans rejoice at the strong +4.3% GDP.

piker 9mo ago

> No conviction or charge 29,075 47% I mean, I'm not exactly pro-ICE here, but if 53% of them have a conviction or charge, that does tell a different story. That's surprisingly high.

sosodev 9mo ago
The data does not say that 53% have a conviction or charge. It says that 27% do. The 26% you miscategorized are people with pending charges. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- piker 9mo ago
  What you’re saying makes no sense. Unless I'm misunderstanding it (and I am in fact a lawyer), the data indicates that 53% of the people have either been convicted of or charged with a crime. Yes, people who are charged are innocent until proven guilty. Nobody is implying any of those charged people are guilty. Fifty-three is a high percentage of any population to face criminal charges, innocent or guilty. That’s it. What do you think is the delta between "charged" and "pending charge"?
  - HaZeust 9mo ago
    What do you think the delta is between "general population", "pending charge", "charged", and "convicted" - while we're at it? You can make a vast majority of the population "pending charge" at some point if you take into consideration they were - at one point - marked "pending bench warrant" during the time between getting a traffic ticket and (A) paying it; or (B) fighting it. Let's see how far we can skew the datasets, with enough motivation. And the "benefit of the doubt" that you'd reflexively give someone on not stretching the truth simply CANNOT be afforded to these people.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - piker 9mo ago
      No this isn’t correct. A bench warrant is not a charge. Neither is an arrest warrant, but in any event most traffic violations will be civil and not criminal matters.
      - HaZeust 9mo ago
        >"A bench warrant is not a charge. Neither is an arrest warrant," Re-read my comment. I never said they were.
        piker 9mo ago
        > You can make a vast majority of the population "pending charge" at some point if you take into consideration they were - at one point - marked "pending bench warrant" during the time between getting a traffic ticket and (A) paying it; or (B) fighting it. This statement is incorrect. A "charge" means charged with a crime. You cannot make anyone "pending charge" if you issue them a bench warrant. Nor an arrest warrant. Charging someone is a different procedure.

mr_00ff00 9mo ago

A common agreement I hear is “illegals/criminals shouldn’t get a trial” as if the point of trials isn’t to figure who is and isn’t genuinely those things.

sergiotapia 9mo ago

27% People Detained by ICE Have Convictions 5% of People Detained By ICE Have Violent Convictions That's a crazy amount of people. ICE needs to do better.

kgwxd 9mo ago
This comment looks familiar.

flatpepsi17 9mo ago

Semantic games. ICE isn't going after people who have already been convicted of other offenses. They are going after illegal immigrants. Hence the name ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

eightysixfour 9mo ago
They specifically call out why the semantics matter in the actual article, in the first paragraph. > President Donald Trump premised his mass deportation agenda on the idea that he will be “returning millions and millions of criminal aliens.” Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Secretary Kristi Noem has repeatedly claimed that they are arresting the “worst of the worst.” When speaking to Trump supporting friends who employ illegal immigrants they specifically defend that it is only the "bad ones."
- Sohcahtoa82 9mo ago
  > When speaking to Trump supporting friends who employ illegal immigrants they specifically defend that it is only the "bad ones." They still feel this way because their news sources don't tell them about restaurants being raided and the entire kitchen being arrested or ICE raids on agriculture. Problems aren't problems until it happens to them.
  - flatpepsi17 9mo ago
    Yes- that's a big problem. The business owners are getting away with massive employment fraud, tax fraud, and any number of OSHA/employee law violations. They need to be arrested and brought to trial. If you can't run a business without breaking the law (including illegal labor), then that business shouldn't exist.
    - eightysixfour 9mo ago
      I agree, however the law must be applied uniformly and consistently for an even playing field. It is not, which allows the government to “pick” winners and losers via selective prosecution. The whole situation has been bungled so badly.

languagehacker 9mo ago

When the Cato institute publishes something like this it's all over. These guys used to be considered incredibly conservative. For them to submit something so level-headed and factual which goes counter to a Republican-led administration's politices indicates that the current government is being run not by folks engaging in good faith with our existing political institutions, but with radicals intent on twisting those institutions for their own agenda. Please remember that 23% of those with no conviction but pending charges should be considered innocent until proven guilty. If you get hit with a traffic stop, you shouldn't be lumped in with violent offenders. That's not how our justice system works.

rapsey 9mo ago
Obama deported way more than Trump does and no one complained. Why is that so? Or at least the complaints were not nearly on the level they are now. The actual anomaly is the Biden era.
- SoftTalker 9mo ago
  I'd like to know of any countries where a foreigner can be there without a valid visa/authorization and not be summarily deported if they are discovered.
  - riedel 9mo ago
    In Germany we have a thing called tolleration [0]. It actually covers quite a few people, because quite a few people seek asylum because legal immigrantion is often dysfunctional. The difference maybe is that it is difficult in Germany to be employed or take part in life without any formal registration. Deportation is often difficult because it needs to be safe and the country of origin has to cooperate. Because Germany only has EU borders, pushing people beyond its border is pretty pointless once they have settled (they typically return within a few days). But we also have over night deportations of families (children having grown up in Germany, people having jobs) with police raids in some cases, that leave people traumatized. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duldung_%28Aufenthaltsrecht%29

paulcole 9mo ago

Isn't it kind of logical that if you knew that if you got on the radar of the authorities that you'd be deported, that you'd do your best to avoid committing any crime (even a minor one)? And even if that's totally illogical, doesn't it make sense that most people aren't convicted criminals, even those who immigrated here illegally? This seems roughly in line with the US population in general? https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal-justice/criminal-records-and-reentry-toolkit https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal-justice/criminal-rec...

gtirloni 9mo ago
The narrative this administration is pushing is that immigratns are terrorists and rapists.
- paulcole 9mo ago
  Did you mean to reply to me or someone else?

Sohcahtoa82 9mo ago

Why is this post flagged?

tartoran 9mo ago
Simple, somebody wants you not to know these facts.

tsoukase 9mo ago

A country that is almost entirely consisted of at most five generations of immigrants is cracking down on foreigners. In some levels the US is not yet a mature country and they don't have the historical experience as other parts of the world.

JohnTHaller 9mo ago

Link for when flagged: https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convictions-73-no-convictions https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi...